Opening .pdfs in Illustrator

[MJNC]

Hi PrintPlanet folk...
I have a job that I need to help estimate, and the designer has up picking up .pdf files from their website to work from. Unfortunately, when I open the .pdfs in Illustrator a few things happen;
1) The pages come up with an error that says some of the elements within the file are RGB, some CMYK; and Illustrator will only work in one color mode per file at a time. So I select CMYK, which leads to the possibility that what I end up with is not what the designer intended. Most designers for this kind of work (packaging) know this, and stick to CMYK while creating files;
2) Everything in the file is on one layer;
3) When I select some of the elements, Illustrator just sees a box with no color values and not the elements themselves. When deleted or moved the content (what appears on screen to be within the box boundary) disappears entirely, including pieces of background. Some shapes that appear in the “preview” mode are not even there in the “artwork” mode;
4) It appears to me that at some point these files were put through Adobe Acrobat to create the .pdfs, and that is what is causing most of the problems I’ve indicated above;
5) But, the client says that people pick up these .pdfs and use them for print all of the time;
6) I am telling them that we need are the original, layered Illustrator files that were initially used to generate the .pdfs. It makes sense that they are not available on their website; they don’t want anyone downloading their stuff and using it for anything else.

This is most of the email that I sent to our sales guy to spell it out for the client. But I am wondering, is it ME making mistakes here? Are there new Illustrator functions that I need to know about that result in such files?
PLEASE HELP! I am the only prepress person here, and I am supposed to know all of this stuff.
Thanks in Advance!
Peace to the Print Planet.
_mjnc

 

[WharfRat]

Do - "Command+D" and look at the document properties.
Was it made with Illustrator?
If not - I would not expect to edit it with Illustrator.

MSD

 

[MJNC]

Hi WharfRat;
Thanks for the speedy reply.
I open the .pdf and do command D like you said and the file creator is Adobe Graphics Manager. Is that why I cannot work with it?
thanks,
_mjnc

So I did a find on my desktop for Adobe Graphics Manager, and it came up with hundreds of files that are all .pdfs out of Illustrator that I created. Advise?

 

[Al Ferrari]

Could well be it. Adobe's official position on this is that Illustrator is NOT a general pdf editor.

Al

 

[MJNC]

Hi AlFerrari;
As I said below, all of the .pdfs that I create out of Illustrator came up in a Desktop find for Adobe Graphics Manager. I wonder if Adobe is just calling it that because it is not a general .pdf editor...? Still, this is a packaging job, similar to a salad dressing label. What other application would you use for that? And I do use Illustrator to sneak artwork from a lot of .pdfs.
Just don’t know what’s causing it all to turn into blocks of stuff. I’ve tried expanding stuff, looking for masks, etc.
Oh well, let me know if ya got anything else.
Thanks a bunch.
_mjnc

 

[ridety]

if u havent already, try opening in acrobat and save as an .eps....then open that in illy

 

[Dov Isaacs]

On behalf of Adobe ...

Adobe Illustrator is not, repeat is not, repeat yet again is not a general purpose PDF editor!!!!!

(To be honest, I do understand why some people think to the contrary. Some very misguided Adobe marketing folks over ten years ago wrongly trumpeted the alleged "fact" that PDF was Adobe Illustrator's native file format. In fact it isn't and never was. Illustrator's native file format is buried as private data inside what looks like a PDF file!!!)

The only PDF files that Adobe Illustrator can safely edit are PDF files that are created by the save as PDF feature of a version of Adobe Illustrator equal or less than the version you are editing with and the "preserve Illustrator Editing Capabilities" option was checked when the PDF file was created. When such PDF files are created, two copies of the content are put into the PDF file - the first copy is PDF content and the second content is "private Illustrator data" which represents the content as processed in Illustrator including layer information, swatches, group information, etc. When you open a PDF file in Adobe Illustrator, an attempt is made to find that private Illustrator data. That is what is safely opened in Illustrator. If that private Illustrator data does not exist, Adobe Illustrator attempts to interpret the PDF data and convert it into equivalent Illustrator objects. Not all PDF objects are part of the Illustrator imaging model and there are some incompatibilities. For example, with the exception of linked placed objects, every graphical object in a PDF file must be in the same color space. Thus, if your non-Illustrator PDF file has multiple color spaces, it will converted to only one color space. Folks, that is a very lossy operation! Likewise, character encodings may change and may be corrupted. And some objects in your non-Illustrator PDF may be significantly modified in ways you may not find acceptable and/or discarded.

Bottom line ... in an emergency, use of Illustrator to modify or extract PDF content may work, but it is definitely not something that is valid use in a generalized PDF print publishing workflow for examining or otherwise editing a PDF file. And if you ignore this advise, you will get what you justly deserve.

- Dov

 

[Dov Isaacs]

Nope, that isn't any better. See my earlier reply!

- Dov

 

[Jose Gonzales]

Hi WharfRat;
Thanks for the speedy reply.
I open the .pdf and do command D like you said and the file creator is Adobe Graphics Manager. Is that why I cannot work with it?
thanks,
_mjnc

So I did a find on my desktop for Adobe Graphics Manager, and it came up with hundreds of files that are all .pdfs out of Illustrator that I created. Advise?

What you actually need is a PDF editor to solve all of these problems. Just search for one who suits your budget/requirements.

 

[leetaylor]

On behalf of Adobe ...

Adobe Illustrator is not, repeat is not, repeat yet again is not a general purpose PDF editor!!!!!

(To be honest, I do understand why some people think to the contrary. Some very misguided Adobe marketing folks over ten years ago wrongly trumpeted the alleged "fact" that PDF was Adobe Illustrator's native file format. In fact it isn't and never was. Illustrator's native file format is buried as private data inside what looks like a PDF file!!!)

The only PDF files that Adobe Illustrator can safely edit are PDF files that are created by the save as PDF feature of a version of Adobe Illustrator equal or less than the version you are editing with and the "preserve Illustrator Editing Capabilities" option was checked when the PDF file was created. When such PDF files are created, two copies of the content are put into the PDF file - the first copy is PDF content and the second content is "private Illustrator data" which represents the content as processed in Illustrator including layer information, swatches, group information, etc. When you open a PDF file in Adobe Illustrator, an attempt is made to find that private Illustrator data. That is what is safely opened in Illustrator. If that private Illustrator data does not exist, Adobe Illustrator attempts to interpret the PDF data and convert it into equivalent Illustrator objects. Not all PDF objects are part of the Illustrator imaging model and there are some incompatibilities. For example, with the exception of linked placed objects, every graphical object in a PDF file must be in the same color space. Thus, if your non-Illustrator PDF file has multiple color spaces, it will converted to only one color space. Folks, that is a very lossy operation! Likewise, character encodings may change and may be corrupted. And some objects in your non-Illustrator PDF may be significantly modified in ways you may not find acceptable and/or discarded.

Bottom line ... in an emergency, use of Illustrator to modify or extract PDF content may work, but it is definitely not something that is valid use in a generalized PDF print publishing workflow for examining or otherwise editing a PDF file. And if you ignore this advise, you will get what you justly deserve.

- Dov

Spot On!!!

 

[alang66]

The comments about Illustrator not being a PDF editor are absolutely correct. My comment would be whether you need to open the files in Illustrator in the first place. The comment that people use my PDFs for print all the time suggests to me that tey are supplied as print ready PDFs. Whether they still contain RGB images or not is a matter for the final print engine to decide final appearance not whether Illustrator will open both colour models. If the files are print-ready but require codes, I would place the PDFs in Illustrator or Indesign and add the code then re-PDF the file. That way should get around any Illustrator glitches with opening up files. We supply print-ready files and opening back up in Illustrator, I have come across the following glitches:

Text problems with custom encoding
Inability to give editability to some gradients and device-N colour images (yet they separate fine on print)
Linked PDF images/artwork makes requests for original image even though it is embedded in the file

If you need to do more than this to files then they are probably not print-ready and supplier needs to be aware of how to supply them. Most common problem is that, as artworkers, we will do labels and such like as front and reverse on the same artwork which is not necessarily print ready as they need to be imposed/stepped individually

 

[beermonster]

packaging here.

agreed illy is not supposed to be a pdf editor, and if you don't have the necessary tools to edit pdf's you need to get some. having said that (and i'm gonna regret saying this) we do open pdf's in illy - BUT we are ultra careful - where poss we will place pdf's, edit in acrobat or Oris PDF tuner (handy but cranky editor) and go from there.

but for me, in my part of the trade, layered indy, illy or photoshop files is THE best - i try to block quack from my mind.....

so - pdf editors for packaging....Neo is arguably king of the heap, artpro is good but expensive, illustrator...no NO - errr I have oris pdf tuner - damm cranky GUI, a bit oldy fashioned but has saved us many times - then of course pitstop ( i don't have this) is an old favourite - and callas have some superb tools as well - there's more but more importantly there's choices

i still prefer illustrator though haaaaaa (omg don't shoot me - Dov - put that damm gun down!!!)

 

[MJNC]

My, what passionate replies you have!

My, what passionate replies you have!

Good Morning, PrintPlanet Folk!
Ridety; I did save eps files out of Acrobat and tried opening them in Illustrator. The good thing about this is that it will outline the embedded fonts for you so there are no font errors in Illustrator. However, the main issues were still screwy.
Dov Issacs; I really dig all the information you provided. As I said earlier, most of the time I can pull the required piece of artwork for a job out of a .pdf- sometimes not. This is mainly for me to design new artwork using their logo, etc. Frankly, this is really the first time that I have a client providing a complete job as a .pdf that hasn’t supplied native files. Due to the way they open in Illustrator, with things more rendered than anything else, I was just wondering if there was a new thing in Illustrator that perhaps I did not know about (entirely possible) which grouped things in such a way... well you get the point. REST ASSURED, I will never rely completely on Illustrator for .pdf work. (and please don’t shoot the Beermonster!)
Jose; Now here is some info I can really use! I will find out about getting Pitstop happening around here for future use (per the Beermonster’s comment). I still don’t know if that would even work with getting the rendered objects back to native format, though.
Alang66; The color space issue is not an issue to me in this case. I was just pointing out another flaw with these so-called final files the client says should be fine. I have to take a whole package and remove everything but the front panel, then turn that into a tag, with some modifications, of course. So no, they certainly are not print ready; regardless of the edits. You did confirm my initial thought, that the supplier does not know what to supply.
Beermonster; Thank you for all of the “choice” information. Again, I am going to find out what it will take to get Pitstop happening around here. I do also totally agree with your statement: “I still prefer Illustrator!”
Everyone; You all did confirm for me what I really needed to know, and that was that what they are providing us is indeed unusable. Gotta say, as usual, Y’all Rock!!!
Peace to the PrintPlanet!!!
Thanks a whole bunch!
_mjnc

 

[MJNC]

woops...!

woops...!

Hey! Forgot to say...
What do Y’all know about this Adobe Graphics Manager? Any info?
Thanks again.
_mjnc

 

[muminn]

experiene from prepress

experiene from prepress

First of all, I'm talking from my experience. Never user Illustrator for editing PDF-s. Never.
It's very unprofessional to edit files which already where made for output purpose and not for editing purposes. I've seen some of my friends who were using this option, and they had always problems, like: color change, font change, pictures profiles changed, etc.

Anyway, never heard about Adobe Graphics Manager.
Simple, reinstall Adobe.

 

[MJNC]

Hi Muminn;
I want to make it perfectly clear to All that I do not use Illustrator to edit .pdfs. Most of the time, I am after a logo or something that’s within a 72 page .pdf, (or off someone’s business card .pdf, or a multitude of other .pdf print pieces) so that I can create brand new art for Price Tags in Illustrator or whatever application I am doing the job in- that the client must then sign off on before we print.
I would never count on Illustrator in such a capacity.
Its just that I received a .pdf from a client that they assured me was print ready and had all of the elements for the new art I was supposed to create. The .pdfs have all sorts of strange pieces which appear to be rasterized, and which also have no line work elements when viewing in artwork mode. All I wanted to know is that when I tell the client the files are unusable, that I am in fact correct. As we are still running CS2 here, and before that was 8.0, I wanted to make sure that there were no new Illustrator features that produced files this way that I was not aware of. OK? Thanks for your concern; everyone is so worried that I am an idiot! Believe me, some of the time I feel like one. But in this case, don’t worry. Thanks everyone.
Peace to the PrintPlanet!
_mjnc

ps. My point here is that before you go writing accusations in reply to me, it is helpful if you read all of the posts up to that point. If you had, I would not have had to write this for the third time. Not that I mind...
Also Muminn; have you given any thought to re-reading what you have typed (to check for spelling and grammatical errors) before hitting the Post Reply button? Also, please explain why you think I should reload the CS2 suite...

 

[claude72]

Its just that I received a .pdf from a client that they assured me was print ready and had all of the elements for the new art I was supposed to create.

I'm not sure to have understood all the discussion and all your problems, but to pick-up elements in the PDF you need more an editing PDF* than an output PDF ("print ready" PDF or, worst, "web display" PDF)...

(* made by "Saving as PDF" in Illustrator, with the "preserve Illustrator Editing Capabilities" option that embeds the .AI datas, as explained by Dov... or better a .AI file)

Of course it's possible, using Illustrator, to extract some elements from a "print-ready" or a "web-display" PDF (I made it often to pick-up a vector logo from a downloaded PDF...), but it's generally a painfull job, needing to spend many time to clean the file to remove all the unuseful clipping-masks and other garbage added by the PDF format!...

... and all the troubles that you describe - one layer only, RGB+CMYK, rasterized elements (from transparences flattenning), empty boxes with no color (used as clipping-masks), etc. - seems to be those garbage that are in a normal PDF...

If it not a secret, can you send me your PDF (by MP) or simply give the link where it is downloadable on your customer website? I would like to have look at it.

 

[MJNC]

Painful and Messy

Painful and Messy

Claude 72;
I am sorry to say that the products I am making tags for are indeed a secret and are not being released until new product launch next year.
Thank you for your confirmation that these do sound like your basic .pdf (generated with Acrobat) issues.
I do agree that using Illustrator to dig out pieces is - on occasion - painful and messy. Welcome to my day-to-day. However, for the most part it does the trick, and my bosses are ok with that.
We are looking into maybe purchasing the PitStop Plug In for Acrobat; but also I need to get the info together for the bosses about some other inexpensive choices so they can feel like they’ve made the educated decision.
What do you use? Does it do what you need? Are there other products that you’d rather be using? Why? Anyone who feels like answering these questions for me, please feel perfectly free to do so. This is now my mission. Thanks so much for all of your help.
Peace to the PrintPlanet and inhabitants all.
_mjnc

 

[claude72]

I am sorry to say that the products I am making tags for are indeed a secret and are not being released until new product launch next year.

OK, I understand, no problem...

I do agree that using Illustrator to dig out pieces is - on occasion - painful and messy. Welcome to my day-to-day. However, for the most part it does the trick, and my bosses are ok with that.

Bad understanding of the real possibilites and the real use of PDFs (including the difference between simple output PDF and editable PDF saved from Illustrator with AI datas) by people unaware of DTP or by bad "designers" is actually a worldwide problem... so, dealing with web or office PDF (or with bad PDFs) for Print jobs it's also my day-to-day nightmare!!!
... and I agree that for the most part it's even easier to use Illustrator to pick-up and clean a logo from a web-PDF than to redraw the whole logo with only the basis of a poor 72 dpi JPEG downloaded from the customer's web site home page!!!

We are looking into maybe purchasing the PitStop Plug In for Acrobat; but also I need to get the info together for the bosses about some other inexpensive choices so they can feel like they've made the educated decision.
What do you use? Does it do what you need?

Like many other people, I use PitStop to fix issues in customers's PDF... mainly for "little" or basic corrections...

... and when the PDF is really too crappy and needs more than an "editing" but needs almost a complete re-working of the layout, if the customer doesn't want to give me the native file (or cannot) I prefer open the PDF in Illustrator and redo the job using the PDF as a basis.

But to extract elements from an existing "output" PDF, I think that PitStop is not the right adapted tool... Illustrator is better (or less unadapted)...
(but the best solution in your case is to have an Illustrator .AI file, or a an Illustrator PDF saved with AI datas)

 

[MJNC]

What do you recommend?

What do you recommend?

Hi Claude 72;
If I’m not to edit in Illustrator, and Pitstop cannot handle it, is there really any REAL .pdf editing tool that actually works? I would like to find something; I know it will be used and abused. Thanks for the info and have a safe, happy weekend.
Peace to the PrintPlanet!
_mjnc