P A N T O N E Thoughts on 9/11

[Ink Tech]

Do you have details of the ink used? Did you match the ink or just go from the Pantone formula guide. If matched, did you do this yourself or get someone else to match the 123 for you? If you matched it yourself, which Pantone inks did you use in the mix. All these can contribute to the result as these induvidual inks are also controlled by certain tolerances. I.e. a yellow and warm red could be within a tolerance of 2.00 individually, which when mixed together would give a greater tolerance variance. This is why the press setup is essential.

Maybe you would prefer it if there was no colour formula displayed and just the colour picture on its own for printers to match their press setup to? This problem would be the same for any colour book provided by any company though. You will also find that different pantone guides often do not match each other completely as they can be printed by different companies. Again this is still controlled by specified tolerances though.

 

[D Ink Man]

I used Pantone registered trademark blending bases, supplied by Pantone which are absolutely EXACT for color strength and shade. I blended the Pantone formula which is 93.80% Yellow (fyi >AAA pigment 12:1) and 6.20% Warm Red (fyi > Red Lake C 53:1). Now Ink Tech, go back to my previous post and see if you have a better understanding and comprehession. Hope so, need some support here, obviously.

 

[Ink Tech]

Having experience in the area, I doubt that the inks you bought would have been EXACT for strength and shade. There are many Pantone registered manufacturers out there and if you draw down a comparative sample of each of their pantone yellows for example, you WILL see a difference between them. This is not to say that the shades are wrong, just that they are within the required Pantone guidelines. For example if one yellow was within 1% tolerance at one side of the pantone standard and another at 1% the other side, there would still be a 2% tolerance difference between the two.

The fact that you mentioned that you used 93.80 yellow and 6.20 warm red means you have followed the guide formula blindly. Like I said earlier, unless you use the exact same ink as the guide and the exact same paper, you cannot use the exact same formula. If you want to print your job properly you cannot be lazy. You have to use intelligent colour control. Trust me, i'm on the technical side of an ink manufacturer and i've done my fair share of mixes. Printing is not an exact science just yet, it still involves experience, skill and understanding of the physical and chemical properties of a press. I've not even started to go into the complications of the chemical side yet.

You mentioned above that you need some support. What is your aim here? What are you trying to achieve?

 

[KWilliams]

Pantone is a guide not a bible. They can call any color they want 123C and anything they want 123U. You have to do what you have to do to match it with your press conditions (press, substrate, ink). Yes, there are weaknesses, and yes, they have a monopoly. Most people have found ways to work around them within their own system, and it can be done with multiple sites/presses. For someone who is asking everyone to be open-minded, you are pretty closed-minded (and downright hostile) to opposing opinions.

 

[Inky 1]

Pantone Stability

Pantone Stability

Pantone, in all its supremacy, has no real control over the books that are printed. I recently pulled reflex blue from the main page and the middle page of 4 different but all current PMS books. We had 8 different densities to choose from. Even though the books are printed litho now (it was letterpress until the new millennium), there seems to be no real density control. I think anyone would say there was a significant improvement for the first years, but has gone back to the same, if not worse variation, that was always a problem. Granted, the book states it's "only a guide" but the inkmakers are almost always blamed for any less than perfect matches to whatever printing/volume/year book that is being used. As far as the same ink used for both coated and uncoated in the printing, that is true. The problem lies in not only the whiteness of the paper, but also in the surface and absorption of the uncoated. Thus lies the reason one ink may not work for both at the printer. Many years in color-matching showed me that we might have a few formulas for coated matches, but dozens for uncoated. Some customers would send us every uncoated paper they would run for verification ahead of time for that very reason. I realize Pantone can't be held accountable for minor density variations, as anyone who has ever run a press knows is impossible to achieve perfect density throughout the run, but what I just saw concerning the reflex density is absolutely unjustifiable. For the most part, we are all on our own. Communication between the printer & inkmaker and using current books can eliminate most of the inconsistencies however.

 

[D Ink Man]

Pantone is King! And I shall not follow, but watch as its constituents drown in its wretched pool of muck.

 

[meddington]

I realize Pantone can't be held accountable for minor density variations, as anyone who has ever run a press knows is impossible to achieve perfect density throughout the run, but what I just saw concerning the reflex density is absolutely unjustifiable.

Now there's an interesting question...to what measurable attribute and tolerance is Pantone maintaining consistency (or lack thereof) when printing it's guides? Density seems the default choice, but Status T density is based on process color filters and says little of the true colorimetric result.

 

[Ink Tech]

Just out of interest D Ink Man, if you "shall not follow" Pantone, which other worldwide colour standards are you using for your matches? Your customers must love how easy it is to specify a job with you.

Just to complicate the topic a little bit further, the appearance of the print also depends what light you view it under so all checks should be done under a light box for full control.

 

[D Ink Man]

I "shall not follow" their values and in this thread have done the best I can to get some momentum to form an aliiegiance from our Print Planet members. It is at least a start to have someone or some group CHALLEGE Pantone. On my own in my crusade, will do little good to change them. But with a following of believers who challenge Pantone, the odds increase that something can be done to change their monarchy and wrongdoing by people who rely on accurate color. That is what I will not follow. However, I am FORCED to follow their color, because Pantone is a monopoly and it is what the printer has to use because of no other option. And this FOLLOWING of color causes my business operation to suffer and degrade my profitability, made only worse in these tougher economic times. The replies that have been posted in this thread, I realize where they are coming from. They are from printers, lithographers who do not care what is inside the can, only that they want to reasonably match color. In my part of the business if that color is not pleasing, then the onus and burden falls on my back to correct it, which is a COSTLY manuver. Remember, hundreds of printers and thousands of colors is what I deal with over only a weeks time. That is why the importance of the Pantone system, is paramount for my corporation to function properly and profitability. Proper color, let's say resonable color is what we are seeking. And paper stock differences within the genre of offset papers, means nothing. I can LIVE with that. It all goes back to the Pantone 123 C vs U issue used as an example for this thread. Starved out ink film (C) and silk screen ink film (U). That is the dilemma. Please help me with this. I truly respect all replies to date, because I understand where trhey are coming fom. Now please try my shoes on, for perhaps a brief moment, and see how they fit. Thank you all.

 

[Ink Tech]

While your issues are reasonable, these problems are not really something that Pantone can control. It is not a result of poor management, organisation or whatever on their part, merely the difficulties and challenges of printing as a whole. There will always be variation due to the many factors and differences involved. The only way to get round this is to specify whether a job is coated or uncoated with the ink mixer and where possible, supply paper samples for this to be matched on. Again, the fault for this isn't due to Pantone, it is just the factors that the ink mixers and printers need to work with, and due to this you need to give them complete information for the job.

If this is affecting your profitability due to some unreasonable and ignorant customers, you have to find a way to educate them to these difficulties as they are always going to be present when a spot colour is required.

 

[meddington]

... Pantone is a monopoly and it is what the printer has to use because of no other option.

Careful what you wish for. It would seem that having to stock different mixing bases and mix recipes from several competing color systems would only add to the problem you are describing, no?

The replies that have been posted in this thread, I realize where they are coming from. They are from printers, lithographers who do not care what is inside the can, only that they want to reasonably match color. In my part of the business if that color is not pleasing, then the onus and burden falls on my back to correct it, which is a COSTLY maneuver.

Many printers (including us) are mixing there own Pantone colors, so the onus for accurate color in this case is on us. Its a rare occasion that we have an ink vender supply us with pre mixed Pantone ink... usually only metallics. Its also a rare occasion that there is a deviation from the Pantone recipe book when mixing spot colors, though our pressman does admit to having to augment the green family at times to adjust for a visual match (often comes out too green on press). I've recently taken measurements from dozens of our production samples comparing the Pantone guides to actual prints and have found nearly all have reasonable matches. Again, milage may vary here, and I'm not saying our pressmen love Pantone, but we make it work. Its a rare job that print only 4/4 here.

We also provide files and proofs using Pantone colors to other printers. and yes, there is a challenge at times. For critical jobs (brand color for food packaging, etc) I recommend obtaining a drawdown of the actual ink on substrate early on in the process to have the client review. Any deviations from what they expect are best caught up front.

 

[KWilliams]

I recommend obtaining a drawdown of the actual ink on substrate early on in the process to have the client review. Any deviations from what they expect are best caught up front.

I think this is where I differ from D Ink Man. We formulate all of our inks, and are not dependent on the recipes that Pantone provides. Our biggest issues with Pantone, are not with the book itself, but with what our customers call Pantone. They have a chip, a previously printed sample, a piece of plastic, a product, or a 10 year old Pantone book, and to them, whatever is in front of them is what it should be. So, we do drawdowns on everything, and there are no surprises.

If you don't have the luxury of that time up front, then arrangements need to be made with the customer, and the arrangement needs to be made up front. If you decide to use Pantone to communicate, then you establish that you will use a visual match, or you establish that you will use the Pantone recipe with a set density.

 

[D Ink Man]

KWilliams,

Quote>>>>>I recommend obtaining a drawdown of the actual ink on substrate early on in the process to have the client review. Any deviations from what they expect are best caught up front.
Remember 100 customers, 1000 colors per week.

 

[dimitri]

What are the differences with GOE?
Thanks!

 

[D Ink Man]

GOE's concept from Pantone is one of more balanced ink films throughout the GOE system and also employing stable pigments that can be either UV or Aqueous coated without the potential for burnout or bleed. They also have supportive software that can be used in the GOE system. It seems to be 10X better, minimum versus the current PMS guide C+ U, but the print industry has not latched onto it yet and perhaps never will. The industry would except GOE if Pantone would step up to the plate and discontinue the current guides. But to date there is no energy by Pantone to do such. Pantone needs to take this action. This would curtail the conundrum of out of control color, such as the exampled PMS 123.

 

[Ink Tech]

Sorry D Ink Man but I am very happy with the current Pantone system. It is well established and useable. We have a history of using it and databases that work perfectly fine with it. The basic colours are also well used and liked on their own as well as in mixes. All our customers are happy with the results of the inks we produce and understand that to get the best results with any ink jobs (whether it uses Pantone or just basic four colour), they need to use basic press control, as any company will use quality control, not matter what the business area.

To be honest, if the new GOE system were to involve any major changes to the current system, I would resist the use of it.

 

[Ink Tech]

Plus you will find that if the basic colours were all based on non-bleed pigments, this would push the price up dramatically. These are only to be used for special finishing circumstances and as such are more economical if used on the odd job only.

 

[D Ink Man]

Do not be Sorry Ink Tech. You have a right to your views and opinion. That is why this forum exists. The people that use the forum can extrapolate what they wish from it.

 

[GazKL440]

Do not be Sorry Ink Tech. You have a right to your views and opinion. That is why this forum exists. The people that use the forum can extrapolate what they wish from it.

yet it would seem that any one who would simply get on with the job of matching a colour and printing the job whilst sipping from the cup of koolaid deserves the highest level of scorn....... Im not sorry and will not apologise for my opinion, if the ppl with eleventy billion inks on 100 different stocks cant get their shit together...buy them a coke... koolaid is horrible shit anyways...

 

[D Ink Man]

Gaz,

Nice intelligent reply. Keep up the good work. You have reinstituted my feelings about human beings.