P A N T O N E Thoughts on 9/11
- Thread starter D Ink Man
- Start date
I believe this horse is more or less dead hey? More whipping probably wont change that... or its bolted... or whatever.....
someone please shut the gate!!!
Let it go man...I give up you are right!!!! If i have to mix a colour again i wont refer to the pantone book... i will guess until i get it right, and watch the profits get "raped" out of every pms job... i will also create a virus that will remove the pantone system from our files and and those of our clients and that way we can pretend it never happened... oh and the memory drug from "torchwood"...that will wipe it completely from our minds!!! Oh hang on thats not real is it???
Wait.....what???????????
someone please shut the gate!!!
Let it go man...I give up you are right!!!! If i have to mix a colour again i wont refer to the pantone book... i will guess until i get it right, and watch the profits get "raped" out of every pms job... i will also create a virus that will remove the pantone system from our files and and those of our clients and that way we can pretend it never happened... oh and the memory drug from "torchwood"...that will wipe it completely from our minds!!! Oh hang on thats not real is it???
Wait.....what???????????
How many pigments are in PMS 304? How many pigments are in PMS 305? I believe the answer to that question is "1" each. The base colorant, process blue, is a single pigment, phthalocyanine blue(pig Index 15:3). The point here gentlemen is that no one can match both PMS 304 & 305 with the single pigment base, process blue, as the book formula suggests. Normally, you will have the need to actually add a small dab of yellow to PMS 304 to match color. It is not because the PMS 304 is a lighter tint and it is not anything related to paper stock. It is because Pantone has been and is erroneous in their color erections. Perhaps it doesn't effect the printers as much as the makers of ink, but it is a major shortcoming in the system. Comment please as now the revelation has been made for all to perceive. Then we can get back to our regualarly scheduled program, The King of Color, Pantone 123. D
meddington
Well-known member
There's also a significant difference in the amount of trans white extender between the two colors, which likely has a significant effect on the way light is filtered/reflected off the sample.. If you're suggesting that Pantone is misrepresenting the recipe, I don't buy it. However, I have no reason to doubt that you might find it necessary to deviate from the recipe to get a visual match.we haven't mixed either of these colors before that I can recall, but we do occassionally deviate from the recipe slightly for greens.
Just my opinion
Just my opinion
^^^ agreed^^^
on the odd occaission, you will need to deviate slightly from the pantone recipe, especially when trying to match a copy that didnt really seem to hit the pantone swatch (poor wash up? poor printing? aliens? kool aid overdose??) I dont fire off an indignant e-mail to previous printer, pantone or ink supplier.... just match the sample and take notes of any changes required and store them in the press colour bible and on the job ticket and get on with it... and sometimes you have to print a particular pms on coloured stock...should pantone release some books done on buff stock??? Ye gods the earth will stop spinning!!!
on the odd occaission, you will need to deviate slightly from the pantone recipe, especially when trying to match a copy that didnt really seem to hit the pantone swatch (poor wash up? poor printing? aliens? kool aid overdose??) I dont fire off an indignant e-mail to previous printer, pantone or ink supplier.... just match the sample and take notes of any changes required and store them in the press colour bible and on the job ticket and get on with it... and sometimes you have to print a particular pms on coloured stock...should pantone release some books done on buff stock??? Ye gods the earth will stop spinning!!!
Lukas Engqvist
Well-known member
Isn't transparent white more or less varnish? How fresh is your swatch book? Varnish yelows, and such colours are very sensitive to substrate colour anyway. I don't think the issue is supporting someone but more like understanding how to use what we have.
Please allow for another (philosophical) analogy. We all use words to communicate. A dictionary is to some extent a "recipie guide" for words, telling you how much of each characteristic you are putting in to it.
Now in communicating with people to some extent the "core value" of the words is of secondary importance, since they are subjectiveley portraid to a subjective audience.
There will be a certain element of tension as a person who is missunderstood will bring out his dictionary to "prove" that he had communicated correctly… but did he/she? If he had communicated would there be the need for a proof?
I do understand that this makes life difficult for makers of dictionaries. Or auditors of dictionaries I suppose.
So D Ink Man, what do you propose needs to be done? As far as i know there is neither a high court of colour or a law of colour to judge by? Would we want there to be? Would any of us honestly survive such a system? I doubt if I would, would you?
Please allow for another (philosophical) analogy. We all use words to communicate. A dictionary is to some extent a "recipie guide" for words, telling you how much of each characteristic you are putting in to it.
Now in communicating with people to some extent the "core value" of the words is of secondary importance, since they are subjectiveley portraid to a subjective audience.
There will be a certain element of tension as a person who is missunderstood will bring out his dictionary to "prove" that he had communicated correctly… but did he/she? If he had communicated would there be the need for a proof?
I do understand that this makes life difficult for makers of dictionaries. Or auditors of dictionaries I suppose.
So D Ink Man, what do you propose needs to be done? As far as i know there is neither a high court of colour or a law of colour to judge by? Would we want there to be? Would any of us honestly survive such a system? I doubt if I would, would you?
The Pied Piper of Pantone
The Pied Piper of Pantone
Keep following the flute player Gaz, Lukas my children, but when you end up in a cave or drowned in a river, there will be no more help for the morality of your souls.
In 1284, while the town of Hamelin was suffering from a rat infestation, a man named Frankie Gammyfoot dressed in pied clothing appeared, claiming to be a rat-catcher. He promised the townsmen a solution for their problem with the rats. The townsmen in turn promised to pay him for the removal of the rats. The man accepted, and played a musical pipe to lure the rats with a song into the Weser River, where all of them drowned. Despite his success, the people reneged on their promise and refused to pay the rat-catcher. The man left the town angrily, but vowed to return some time later, seeking revenge.
On Saint John and Paul's day while the inhabitants were in church, he played his pipe yet again, this time attracting the children of Hamelin. One hundred and thirty boys and girls followed him out of the town, where they were lured into a cave and never seen again. Depending on the version, at most three children remained behind (one of whom was lame and could not follow quickly enough, the other one was deaf and followed the other children out of curiosity and the last was blind and unable to see where they were going) who informed the villagers of what had happened when they came out of the church.
Other versions (but not the traditional ones) claim that the Piper lured the children into the river and let them drown like the rats or led the children to a cave on Köppen Hill or Koppelberg Hill (outside of Hamelin). Another version is that the Pied Piper hypnotized the children into following him to the top of Koppelberg Hill where he took them to a mystery land and had his wicked way, [1] or a place called Koppenberg Mountain[2] and returned them after payment or that he returned the children after the villagers paid several times the original amount of gold.
The Pied Piper of Pantone
Keep following the flute player Gaz, Lukas my children, but when you end up in a cave or drowned in a river, there will be no more help for the morality of your souls.
In 1284, while the town of Hamelin was suffering from a rat infestation, a man named Frankie Gammyfoot dressed in pied clothing appeared, claiming to be a rat-catcher. He promised the townsmen a solution for their problem with the rats. The townsmen in turn promised to pay him for the removal of the rats. The man accepted, and played a musical pipe to lure the rats with a song into the Weser River, where all of them drowned. Despite his success, the people reneged on their promise and refused to pay the rat-catcher. The man left the town angrily, but vowed to return some time later, seeking revenge.
On Saint John and Paul's day while the inhabitants were in church, he played his pipe yet again, this time attracting the children of Hamelin. One hundred and thirty boys and girls followed him out of the town, where they were lured into a cave and never seen again. Depending on the version, at most three children remained behind (one of whom was lame and could not follow quickly enough, the other one was deaf and followed the other children out of curiosity and the last was blind and unable to see where they were going) who informed the villagers of what had happened when they came out of the church.
Other versions (but not the traditional ones) claim that the Piper lured the children into the river and let them drown like the rats or led the children to a cave on Köppen Hill or Koppelberg Hill (outside of Hamelin). Another version is that the Pied Piper hypnotized the children into following him to the top of Koppelberg Hill where he took them to a mystery land and had his wicked way, [1] or a place called Koppenberg Mountain[2] and returned them after payment or that he returned the children after the villagers paid several times the original amount of gold.
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Lukas Engqvist
Well-known member
Sorry for the off topic but...
ye love "the Amazing Maurice and his Educated Rodents" by Terry Pratchett, a very nice alternative interpretation, where he points out that there is a flaw in the logic since rats are very good swimmers.
ye love "the Amazing Maurice and his Educated Rodents" by Terry Pratchett, a very nice alternative interpretation, where he points out that there is a flaw in the logic since rats are very good swimmers.
gordo
Well-known member
Thanks Gordo
Thanks Gordo
Although not ink and color, the Pied Piper of Pantone strikes again. Thank goodness I'm deaf, blind and crippled. At least I won't suffer a fate of drowning in their river or get lost forever in their cave. Wake up Moonachie, you scourge of the industry. Sorry, got PMS today. D
Thanks Gordo
Although not ink and color, the Pied Piper of Pantone strikes again. Thank goodness I'm deaf, blind and crippled. At least I won't suffer a fate of drowning in their river or get lost forever in their cave. Wake up Moonachie, you scourge of the industry. Sorry, got PMS today. D
Marie PANTONiEtte- Print Planet needs to be the SUBJECTS!
Marie PANTONiEtte- Print Planet needs to be the SUBJECTS!
Marie Antoinette was the beautiful Queen of France who became a symbol for the wanton extravagance of the 18th century monarchy, and was stripped of her riches and finery, imprisoned and beheaded by her own subjects during the French Revolution that began in 1789.
An ancient factual story that has repeated itself. Off with their heads fellow countrymen!
Marie PANTONiEtte- Print Planet needs to be the SUBJECTS!
Marie Antoinette was the beautiful Queen of France who became a symbol for the wanton extravagance of the 18th century monarchy, and was stripped of her riches and finery, imprisoned and beheaded by her own subjects during the French Revolution that began in 1789.
An ancient factual story that has repeated itself. Off with their heads fellow countrymen!
Yes sir we could!
Yes sir we could!
george9527 deng,
We certainly could build a corporation that consisted of colors that are of practical nature. They would be colors that would most importantly, equal film thickness throughout the color guide. In other words, thicknesses that a printer, lithographer could reasonably carry on his press and achieve good runnability and printability characteristics, no matter what the coverage. For the coated and uncoated swatch book, each blend color would be THE SAME INK, at the same ink film thickness. A ink film thickness of .50 mil would be the perfect amount (as measured on the presses vibrator roller) to lay in our swatck book. Additionally in this age of high technology our system wold include spectrophotometric data with each ink swatch. The spectro data would be included ALSO, on our choice of substrates that we choose to use for our printings. We would ONLY market our COLOR for the printing, lithographic industries. We would have a limited number of colors as to promote accuracy. We would have a quality control team that would read with a spectophotometer at least every 10 guides of the printing to ensure we would be in conformance to a delta E of less than .50. Once we establish the system, we will not add trendy, unusual, or any other colors futuristically to skew our company and that would compromise the end users the printer. WE WILL BE CONSISTENT. This consistency WILL BE OUR COMPANT STATEMENT MISSION. Every book with no revised editions will be the way we proceed. Simplistic, accurate consistency. Yes George, to answer your question, I believe a coorporation could be formed to easily out perform the evil ones. D Ink Man
Yes sir we could!
george9527 deng,
We certainly could build a corporation that consisted of colors that are of practical nature. They would be colors that would most importantly, equal film thickness throughout the color guide. In other words, thicknesses that a printer, lithographer could reasonably carry on his press and achieve good runnability and printability characteristics, no matter what the coverage. For the coated and uncoated swatch book, each blend color would be THE SAME INK, at the same ink film thickness. A ink film thickness of .50 mil would be the perfect amount (as measured on the presses vibrator roller) to lay in our swatck book. Additionally in this age of high technology our system wold include spectrophotometric data with each ink swatch. The spectro data would be included ALSO, on our choice of substrates that we choose to use for our printings. We would ONLY market our COLOR for the printing, lithographic industries. We would have a limited number of colors as to promote accuracy. We would have a quality control team that would read with a spectophotometer at least every 10 guides of the printing to ensure we would be in conformance to a delta E of less than .50. Once we establish the system, we will not add trendy, unusual, or any other colors futuristically to skew our company and that would compromise the end users the printer. WE WILL BE CONSISTENT. This consistency WILL BE OUR COMPANT STATEMENT MISSION. Every book with no revised editions will be the way we proceed. Simplistic, accurate consistency. Yes George, to answer your question, I believe a coorporation could be formed to easily out perform the evil ones. D Ink Man
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Simply wow
Simply wow
I can't believe that I wasted the thirty minutes to read this thread.
I worked in the folding carton industry running mostly recycled clay coated newsback. The color of the board would change from roll to roll. Some rolls were yellowish looking, some were reddish and others were of a bluish tint all within the same press run. You could measure it with a densitometer or a spectrophotometer. We sure as heck didn't change inks for these hue changes. We just did what we had to do to print the job within the customer's specifications.
Simply wow
I can't believe that I wasted the thirty minutes to read this thread.
I worked in the folding carton industry running mostly recycled clay coated newsback. The color of the board would change from roll to roll. Some rolls were yellowish looking, some were reddish and others were of a bluish tint all within the same press run. You could measure it with a densitometer or a spectrophotometer. We sure as heck didn't change inks for these hue changes. We just did what we had to do to print the job within the customer's specifications.
Folding Carton ain't Picassos
Folding Carton ain't Picassos
CD102,
There are other forms of printings you should well know, that require much more stringent measures for color consistency than folding carton products. C'mon now, you can comprehend that fact. Stop legging my pull. D
Folding Carton ain't Picassos
CD102,
There are other forms of printings you should well know, that require much more stringent measures for color consistency than folding carton products. C'mon now, you can comprehend that fact. Stop legging my pull. D
D
D
I believe that to be true, but whether we are printing Rembrandt's or Hamburger Helper, the end game is to give the customer a usable product within his specifications. Nobody can account for all the variables in stock when assembling a book of color standards. In the end, the printer will get the job done, all obstacles be damned. The difference between 123u and 123c just isn't that big of a deal to most of us.
If you believe you can build a better matching system and put Pantone out of existence, then you're more than welcome to try.
D
I believe that to be true, but whether we are printing Rembrandt's or Hamburger Helper, the end game is to give the customer a usable product within his specifications. Nobody can account for all the variables in stock when assembling a book of color standards. In the end, the printer will get the job done, all obstacles be damned. The difference between 123u and 123c just isn't that big of a deal to most of us.
If you believe you can build a better matching system and put Pantone out of existence, then you're more than welcome to try.
Dinner Time - Come and Get It
Dinner Time - Come and Get It
MOST of us do not print folding carton Hamburger Helper work. That would be MOST of us. The difference in Pantone 123c and Pantone 123u is SIGNIFICANT for SOME of us. Those SOME are the ones who care about quality, consistency and legendary lithographing that has made up this Print Planet of ours. So keep running that CCN and that SBS board so people can keep eating that processed food out of the work that you print. Have a heaping helping of some hospatality! Guess this won't make the news stand or National Geographic cover though. Bon appetit. D Ink Man
Dinner Time - Come and Get It
MOST of us do not print folding carton Hamburger Helper work. That would be MOST of us. The difference in Pantone 123c and Pantone 123u is SIGNIFICANT for SOME of us. Those SOME are the ones who care about quality, consistency and legendary lithographing that has made up this Print Planet of ours. So keep running that CCN and that SBS board so people can keep eating that processed food out of the work that you print. Have a heaping helping of some hospatality! Guess this won't make the news stand or National Geographic cover though. Bon appetit. D Ink Man
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