Pantone Color Percentages...

kdw75

Well-known member
I have recently noticed a change in Pantones percentages in Pitstop Pro. Normally PMS 158C would be M: 62% Y: 95%, but now there is another PMS 158C showing up that is C: 2.8 M: 66.1 Y: 98.8 and if I highlight the color and choose the original PMS 158C, it doesn't change to it. I have to switch to another color and then switch to the original.

Can someone explain this to me?
 

Magnus59

Well-known member
What library is displaying C: 2.8 M: 66.1 Y: 98.8 ?
Both Colorbridge and Pantone+ Solid coated V3 are displaying M62% Y95%
 

gordo

Well-known member
On Pantone's website:
158C.jpg


Of course despite the caveat, the numbers aren't the same as shown in the latest PhotoShopCC
 

Ulrich

Well-known member
when you choose Pantone 158 C from the Plus-Library in Indesign mixed in the Lab-modus and than change the mode to cmyk, you will get a 3-color mixture (here: 0,55-63,04-91,88-0) with CMY and numbers behind the comma as the alternative color space instead of the 2-color mixture 0-62-97-0 from the website...

so, it is allowed to guess, your document is not been created with current (Pantone-) software? Because, if you have to change first to a different color and then back to 158C, the "new" 158C will be served from an actually Library where the CMYK definition is 2-colored...
 
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scotts

Well-known member
Not sure why your Pitstop has changed, but can tell you that Pantone has changed the values for 158C. With V3 of the color libraries it was 0-62-95-0, and then when they updated to V4 it became 0-62-97-0. Like Gordo, don't know if anyone can explain Pantone, even Pantone themselves and why/how they are now doing the things they do.

Wondering if your Pitstop was using the LAB values and then changing to CMYK?
 

kdw75

Well-known member
The files in question are created by an ad agency and they are using Photoshop to make the spot colors. When I get them they say PMS 158C, but have the mixture that includes 2% Cyan. I recently updated to Pantone v3 and that is when I started noticing this.
 

DYP

Well-known member
I have used Pantone Spot colors for years but what always has puzzled me is all the posts about the CMYK color values. Why is that even important (other than maybe in CMYK only offset printing) given those values can change depending on what working profile from LAB values you are using. Being in the printing business with digital press and wide format how my printed Pantone Spot Color are determined is by output libraries in the RIP. If I need to better match the Pantone book, color output values are determined for that specific printer/media combination so other than to look close on screen I could care less what the CMYK working or input values are. If you are converting spot to process why are doing that?
 

Ulrich

Well-known member
Well, not every RIP respect Lab- or CMYK-values from a Pantone Library in the RIP, it is also a question of the concrete naming of the spotcolor and then the cmyk composition / definition of a spot color plays a role if the RIP of the digital printing device did not find or respect Lab values for a final conversion for printing.
Because the alternative color space (yes, there is such a thing ... ;-) ) for converting into the colors of the printing device the existing proprietary and actual color space like DeviceN or Nchannel of a spot color is only defined in CMYK, or better: The CMYK-mode is set as the alternative color space and not Lab.

Whether in the background in some cases these CMYK values are then converted / ripped by the respective RIP internally in the RIP only via Lab into the corresponding separation of a 4-, 6-, 7-, 8-10 or 11-color output device , is not only beyond my knowledge, but is irrelevant in this context:
Finally, it is about how the source (the alternative color space) is specifically defined, which is used for a final conversion before output, when the definition is not overruled by a Library in the RIP.
 
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DYP

Well-known member
I understand what you are saying but it still bring up the question why mess with input values when you could just as easy mess with the output values and get maximum printer gamut. Many RIPs support printing color charts where you can pick the best output values that match the Pantone Book or any custom spot color creating a new RIP spot color library if necessary. I would think most here are familiar with the Fiery RIP Spot On feature. So easy to do. I have a piece with Pantone 2427 C to print this morning that need a little tweak in Spot On and then it will match perfectly to the Pantone Book.
 

Ulrich

Well-known member
I am sure that with the vast majority of data, "messing around" with input values happens unknowingly and unnoticed. The alternative color space given to the PDF, for example. Not every user is able to activate the "Standard Lab values for spot color" or understand this option in the Ink Manager in Indesign ...

But I definitely do not want to contradict that with the right software and knowledge of its operation, it can be easy to exercise real control over the print result.

I understood the question of what CMYK values should be good for as alternative values for the definition of a spot color and I wanted to answer that in principle: Whenever there is no other (final) control over the output and these values will be evaluated as a source definition ; -)

Best

Ulrich
 

scotts

Well-known member
The reason why some printers care about the CMYK breakout instead of Lab, is because on one press you might run a customers job as Spot and another you might need to run it CMYK.

There could be press issues, ink issues, stock issues, or a hole list of other reasons that could be the issue.

Or it could just come down to cost, where the customer doesn't want to pay for a spot color job on an offset press. And they still want all their pieces to match from offset and digital.

And if all your presses (offset and digital) are not running the same RIP, you could have different results from how the RIP handles the spot color, depending on the Pantone library it is using. Switching their piece(s) to CMYK takes that issue away.
 

Puch

Well-known member
Anybody has information about what CMYK Pantone is referring to?

I think Pantone defines its colors in LAB, nowadays. 158C is 64, 44, 63. If I convert it to certain CMYK color spaces I get the following values:
FOGRA 39: 1, 63, 90, 0
SWOP2006 Coated v3: 1, 63, 97, 1
GRACOL 2006: 1, 64, 92, 0
Japan Color 2001 Coated: 0, 66, 88, 0
FOGRA 47: 0, 61, 100, 0
 

Ulrich

Well-known member
not complete: do not forget the four different Rendering Intents...

Printing as it self is so serious, but talking about is so funny!

;-)
 

DigitalM

Member
I have used Pantone Spot colors for years but what always has puzzled me is all the posts about the CMYK color values. Why is that even important (other than maybe in CMYK only offset printing) given those values can change depending on what working profile from LAB values you are using. Being in the printing business with digital press and wide format how my printed Pantone Spot Color are determined is by output libraries in the RIP. If I need to better match the Pantone book, color output values are determined for that specific printer/media combination so other than to look close on screen I could care less what the CMYK working or input values are. If you are converting spot to process why are doing that?
Because the printing industry has spent a lot of time and effort and money in order to make color management appear to be a giant mystery. I agree with you 100%, CMYK value in a vacuum without a profile is literally meaningless - however, you can see how confused the industry is just by reading this thread.
 

SZmetana

Member
Of course, specific CMYK numbers for any PANTONE color don't mean that much, because the printed appearance of the same CMYK numbers will vary tremendously, depending on substrate, inks, densities, gain, and other print conditions.

To produce the most accurate spot color simulations with CMYK, you should use an Lab library rather than a CMYK library, and separate Lab to CMYK using a separation profile that most closely represents your actual print condition. The goal is to get an Lab reading for a printed CMYK spot simulation that is a close as possible to the ideal PANTONE-specified Lab value.

So if you're aligned to GRACoL, you could use a GRACoL CRPC6 separation profile. Better yet would be to do a print characterization on the substrate, on the actual press, with the actual inks being used. That way, you would have the most accurate separation profile to use to match target PANTONE Lab values.

The Lab target values (and resulting CMYK values) for any PANTONE color will be different, depending on whether you are using M0, M1 or M2 measurement modes. PANTONE provides target values for M0, M1 and M2 measurement modes, but most vendors don't provide all these libraries to their customers. You can only get the closest PANTONE match by using the correct Lab value for the Measurement mode you're using: if you're measuring in M1, you won't get the closest match using an M2 value.

Adobe Creative Cloud has only supplied Lab and CMYK libraries for M2.

But the print world is moving to M1 (ie, GRACoL and FOGRA) as the default measurement mode, and PANTONE ColorBridge has also changed with v4 to use M1 rather than M2, and which is why the CMYK numbers for ColorBridge have all changed. (PANTONE made this decision to align with the latest standards like GRACoL.)
 

Ulrich

Well-known member
Because the printing industry has spent a lot of time and effort and money in order to make color management appear to be a giant mystery. I agree with you 100%, CMYK value in a vacuum without a profile is literally meaningless - however, you can see how confused the industry is just by reading this thread.
The post started with Pantone 158 C(!)

For workers they are involved in the industry means that papertype 1+2, coated, but you are right of course, there are different separations in some profiles for that output Intent regarding different calibrations and aimed increases (e.g. Fogra 39 and 51), but that is not the point here:
The originally poster just asked for explanations how (and why) he noticed different cmyk-values for a spotcolor from Pantone in PitStop...
 

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