PDF to Illustrator

[keith1]

Greetings all,

I'm pretty certain I know my answer, but it's been a few years since I visited this problem and maybe newer software versions have brought newer results. I'm still on Acrobat 8 (it works) and Illustrator from CS 5 - version 15 or 16 i think.

A label printer wants to convert my PDF files to Illustrator first and run them from there. I've had this issue before with a different label manufacturer. I think it's so they can make a die line in Illustrator. I'm prepared to send a PDF die line, but . . .

My experience is that Illustrator is NOT a PDF editor. This has pretty much been confirmed once again this morning because a couple fonts were missing when they opened my PDF in Illustrator. My Pitstop pre-flight claims they are indeed embedded.

Their solution: Outline the fonts. This to me is only part of the solution.

I'm more concerned about colour shift than fonts. I speak from experience. I nearly had a large label order rejected due to colour shift. I opened my file for the label people first in Acrobat, then in Illustrator, put the eyedropper on both (it was a light cream colour). Indeed there was a difference.
This was a few years ago.

I'm concerned. Any thoughts or input?

Thanks,
Keith

 

[pdan]

Same scenerio, no changes. You'll likely get more detailed replies, but...
The success occurrences of opening a pdf in Illy usually result from pdf's created from Illy. Beyond that it's a crapshoot.

Outline fonts? What if there needs to be a last minute correction??
Do you want you fonts slightly bolder?
There are well documented techniques you can use to outline fonts (from InDesign) which will yield better outlining.

I nearly lost my mind when the largest Pocket Folder vendor in my area (a very large US city) told me they were opening my pdf's in Illy but my pdf needed fonts outlined. That was a few years back.

 

[keith1]

As I suspected then. I'm wondering if someone can point out a logical reason for opening PDF's in Illustrator. That seems to be the question . . .As in, why would you? Doesn't even make sense to me.
All I get from the label place is; "Our workflow requires EPS." I don't get it.

K

 

[tommrz]

As a flexo prepress guy and not a designer I can honestly say that we open supplied pdf files in illustrator quite often. I know when you supply a pdf you generally think it is ready to go. In most cases it probably is...for offset printing. There are some flexo-centric scenarios that most creatives are not aware of. When we open your files in Illustrator instead of just making plates from the supplied pdf we are attempting to help you out with some unexpected problems on press. Trapping for instance is different for a flexo press vs an offset press. On a flexo press, if you have a blend that drops to 0% on your label you will see a distinct ugly hard line. The same goes for photos that have large areas of 0% in one or more of 4c process. You will see a large "hole" where the dots go to 0%. Sure, we can rip and plate your pdf as is but chances are you are not going to like the results on press. I assume the printer you are talking about is a flexo printer because you mentioned the job was a label. I came from an offset background into flexo and had to learn a few things along the way, they are two different things.

 

[keith1]

Thanks Tom,

Interesting insight Thanks! It is typically a flexo operation however these particular labels are being printed digital label press as CMYK, so no plates.
If it were to be run flexo, would it not be appropriate to request Illustrator files from clients? Or at least warn of the dangers that lurk. It's easy enough if it were only a matter of outlining fonts but scarey when colour can be off.

K

 

[Al Ferrari]

http://printplanet.com/forums/adobe/18564-opening-pdfs-illustrator


See the above authoritative post by Dov Isaacs of Adobe.

Al

 

[keith1]

That certainly sums it up quite eloquently

 

[Stephen Marsh]

As I suspected then. I'm wondering if someone can point out a logical reason for opening PDF's in Illustrator. That seems to be the question . . .As in, why would you? Doesn't even make sense to me.
All I get from the label place is; "Our workflow requires EPS." I don't get it.

K

Adobe Illustrator is the defacto standard tool of the label industry.

It is a bit like taking a native PageMaker file to a service provider in 2014, it is not the standard or accepted file format (OK, I know that this is not a fair analogy to PDF).

Sure, there are many great tools for working with PDF files, however my guess is that many label printers don’t have these tools. They are used to doing what they do in Illustrator and that is what they prefer. They open a PDF in Illustrator because when all one has is a hammer, even a screw looks like a nail.

So, rather than banging your head against the wall, accept that they require .AI files and supply a native Illustrator file, with linked images and fonts (or if you really have to, outline the fonts to paths in a copy).


Stephen Marsh

 

[keith1]

Could have prepared the file as Illustrator from the start . . .had I been aware. Well I did know label people had a thing for Illustrator, but didn't realize it was carrying over to digital press output. Now, since there are several labels, it will require extra work.
But that's not the real problem. The problem is that people's files are basically being manipulated without them being advised.
If I receive a Publisher or Office file from someone, one of the first things I do is make them aware that their file isn't going to remain in that format and to look out for alterations (usually this is a good thing).
Haven't heard the name Pagemaker for a long while. You must be old! heh,heh

 

[rich apollo]

Could have prepared the file as Illustrator from the start . . .had I been aware. Well I did know label people had a thing for Illustrator, but didn't realize it was carrying over to digital press output. Now, since there are several labels, it will require extra work.
But that's not the real problem. The problem is that people's files are basically being manipulated without them being advised.

Files are being manipulated all the time. There are last minute tweaks, re-separations for ink optimization, and little things that people catch (like the wrong date on a folio, or the black and white ad that is 4-color gray). In your case, you said there is the need for a dieline. Would it work for the printer to send you the die for you to put into the files?

The reason you saw a color shift when the file had been opened in Illustrator may be that Illustrator can only support one color mode at a time - CMYK or RGB. PDF can handle a whole bucketful of color modes in the same file. There may also have been the assignment of a different ICC profile.

You also spoke of font issues. Fonts can be embedded in PDF, Ai, and EPS files for output. You cannot open any of those in Illustrator and manipulate the embedded font.

 

[mattbeals]

Opening a PDF in illustrator is one thing (very bad), but placing it as art in Illustrator is fine. Tell them to buy artpro or Neo. I would suspect that much of what they need to do could be done with PitStop.

 

[tommrz]

Was the "light cream" job that was almost rejected printed digital? Light cream is like trying to match a tan or building a PMS grey out of 4c process. Because it is digital does not mean it is any less complicated. Our Xeikon (dry toner) prints a lot differently then our HP Indigo (wet ink) which also prints differently then a cannon (basically a copier). The HP and Xeikon emulate a more traditional rosette dot structure where as the cannon looks like an engraving using lines rather then dots. The Xeikon has a total of 5 printable colors where as the HP has 7, obviously the HP has a wider gamut since you can lay down more colors. The Xeikon has an opaque white toner that tends to leave a pink cast on colors when laid down with 4c process. It can be extremely difficult to match certain colors, especially when the color is called "light cream" instead of PMS XXX. That being said, when the sales guy or the scheduler starts moving an item from one machine to another because its cheaper or whatever, color becomes even more of an issue. In short, CMYK does not and will not print exactly the same on any given machine due to many factors. Manipulation of digitally printed files is just as common as conventionally printed files especially in the label world where PMS logo colors are extremely important.
In my experience, sales people and customer service reps are reluctant to call a customer and ask for anything file wise. They always say that the customer says their other printer didn't need this or that, why do you. I need it because i am trying to produce the best possible product i can given the tools i have to do it. If i am using Illustrator to manipulate a job or ArtPro or PitStop I am still manipulating it. Sometimes, a lot of times, native files are the only way to produce a job correctly without having to half ass it.

 

[keith1]

Light cream differed as a result of the PDF file being opened (& output) in Illustrator. The percentages of CMYK changed in the file. This is my whole point - if you open a PDF file in Illustrator, expect it to be altered.

 

[tommrz]

Prepress should have caught that for sure. It is possible that the operator was not aware that Adobe has changed the default PMS library to PANTONE+ and PMS colors in jobs done prior to CS6 will have different CMYK definitions than CS6 and above. If the color was RGB as someone else has mentioned as a possibility than it should have been crossed referenced between Acrobat and AI.

 

[keith1]

It's not something they would catch because it's not something they would look for. A lot of people are of the notion that Illustrator can open PDF and all is beautiful and swell.