Please help settle a disagreement

[Alith7]

When I mentioned the microscope evidence that shows what the operator is not seeing, their response was "nobody is going to use a microscope to look at the finished book!!"
A true, but irrelavent answer.

Love that! Just because no one else is going to look that close doesn't make it irrelevant for diagnosing the problem!
I've heard the same thing MANY times....

 

[cementary]

Couldn't help but to notice ,after looking at your profile, that your a pre press guy. Have you ever had opportunity to actually RUN a multicolor offset press, or are you just throwing around terminologies you've heard at the water cooler? And when I say run, I refer to working the biznez end of the machine not the feeder. After you've done that for a decade or three then perhaps you'd be in a position to question the guys in your plant that are actually doing it. Do you even know what kind of blankets the guys are using?

Just throwing, true. As you state before, i don't have a @vagina@, but i've spent enough time studying them – inside and outside .
I don't need to run a press by myself to know how it works, ok?
Your arguments are all pointless. Like: "You wasn't in the army, son? You don't know a shit".
Personally, i always respect a person with lots of knowledge and experience. But the way you carrying a dialog is so arrogant, it's just LOL

P.S. For sure i know what kind of blankets they use. And i don't like that blanket, 'cause it was made for heatset, not sheetfed.

 

[cementary]

"nobody is going to use a microscope to look at the finished book!!"
A true, but irrelavent answer.

Heard that too many times

 

[Alois Senefelder]

cementary,


For your attention .......

 

[turbotom1052]

Just throwing, true. As you state before, i don't have a @vagina@, but i've spent enough time studying them – inside and outside .
I don't need to run a press by myself to know how it works, ok?
Your arguments are all pointless. Like: "You wasn't in the army, son? You don't know a shit".
Personally, i always respect a person with lots of knowledge and experience. But the way you carrying a dialog is so arrogant, it's just LOL

P.S. For sure i know what kind of blankets they use. And i don't like that blanket, 'cause it was made for heatset, not sheetfed.

I think you DO need to run a press yourself to know how it TRULY works. I use a keyboard and a mouse on a fairly regular basis but I would never presume to tell a guy in pre press what he or she is doing wrong. This is even after spending a few years looking into a light table. Ive seen many times guys that think they know whats going on where the ink meets the paper, running their mouth and causing problems in the pressroom. Im not saying your one of them, just that I've seen it happen. Often it winds up being the bosses nephew, and he starts tossing around judgments on what guys are doing wrong, after polling guys on an Internet forum. Do the pressroom workers in the company you work, for know that your undermining their efforts? I bet not.

 

[RJ Litho]

Cemetery, I have seen up to 25000 sheets on our 73" Roland full size sheet running all UV pantones inks .Only one plate had a screen on it .On the 40" 7000- 10000 sheets no issues .Most problems show up in below 30% and below where dots sharpen up .From my experience ph level has an effect on these plates with UV above ph of 4.8and above plateS will be a nightmare .put P45 SORD plate on problem goes away .I went back to old faithfull Prisco 3451U + Alkaless 3000 .We also run a flow clear water filtration system on all presses and this helps a lot .
RJ

 

[cementary]

I think you DO need to run a press yourself to know how it TRULY works. I use a keyboard and a mouse on a fairly regular basis but I would never presume to tell a guy in pre press what he or she is doing wrong. This is even after spending a few years looking into a light table. Ive seen many times guys that think they know whats going on where the ink meets the paper, running their mouth and causing problems in the pressroom. Im not saying your one of them, just that I've seen it happen. Often it winds up being the bosses nephew, and he starts tossing around judgments on what guys are doing wrong, after polling guys on an Internet forum. Do the pressroom workers in the company you work, for know that your undermining their efforts? I bet not.

TurboTom, you're either reading my posts not carefully or my English is too poor. I never underestimate our pressmen. Moreover, I think they're doing their best to run the jobs as best as they can in existing conditions. Since I am in some weird way trying to made color they produce consistent and right. And since they see improvement in that, it'seems easier to them talk with me on press problems they're facing. There're lot's of them: poor ink, wrong blanket, awful wash etc.
and TurboTom, if I'm a "boss's nephew" why bother writing smth here? I would have a lot of ways for self-affirmation offline

 

[turbotom1052]

TurboTom, you're either reading my posts not carefully or my English is too poor. I never underestimate our pressmen. Moreover, I think they're doing their best to run the jobs as best as they can in existing conditions. Since I am in some weird way trying to made color they produce consistent and right. And since they see improvement in that, it'seems easier to them talk with me on press problems they're facing. There're lot's of them: poor ink, wrong blanket, awful wash etc.
and TurboTom, if I'm a "boss's nephew" why bother writing smth here? I would have a lot of ways for self-affirmation offline

I am just putting forth my observances of things Ive encountered over the years. My reference to being the bosses nephew was just a euphemism meant to convey just one of them observances. More importantly Im trying to set to rest this prevailing notion that, contrary to what many in our industry would like to believe, there still is a need for craftsmanship and hard knocks experience when it comes to running a multicolor press. I know that the bean counters would love to believe that that can substitute technology for experience. It would appear that the prevailing attitude in our industry is that, if we spend all our money on the latest and greatest lithographic wizardry, that we can make it up, and then some, by hiring less experienced pressroom employees.
This trend is most noticeable when you look at a companies roster. There was a time when being a multicolor pressman was a position held in very high regard. Just about every company made sure that when it came to their flagship press that they hired the very best people available. You might try to cut costs on the feeder end of the press but never on the lead guy. In addition to this it would also be of even more importance that you had a dedicated pressroom supervisor, with actual experience in doing the job.
These days it seems that lead pressman are chosen more so by their willingness to run around like an idiot, with a broom stuck up their butt so that they can sweep the floors while doing all their press duties, thus saving the company from hiring a janitor. The pressroom supervisors are chosen more by their willingness to implement these unfair policies, and by just how hard they can crack the whip. Chosen for their willingness to take abuse instead of their technical expertise.
Ive had a real hard in understanding why many companies would place so little priority on the their businesses highest cost center. Often there will be a long list of highly paid and respected tech personal in the pre press dept., with supervisors to back them up, yet in the pressroom its to hire or promote guys right off the broom, and have these guys perform these jobs with little to no real supervision. Then when things go wrong, as they invariably, will these guys are given a spanking to get them into line, as if a reprimand is going to actually improve their skills !!!
All of this is certainly not made any easier when someone else in the company, with no real knowledge of presswork fans the flames of descent.
My feeling is that these people should mind their own business, and worry about keeping their own side of the street clean. Your comments cementary would indicate that PERHAPS your one of these people. If your not as I mentioned, then my apologies. If you are then Id suggest you stop stirring the pot before some of the pressroom guys wait for you in the parking lot after work one day.

 

[Alith7]

Ive had a real hard in understanding why many companies would place so little priority on the their businesses highest cost center. Often there will be a long list of highly paid and respected tech personal in the pre press dept., with supervisors to back them up, yet in the pressroom its to hire or promote guys right off the broom, and have these guys perform these jobs with little to no real supervision. Then when things go wrong, as they invariably, will these guys are given a spanking to get them into line, as if a reprimand is going to actually improve their skills !!!
All of this is certainly not made any easier when someone else in the company, with no real knowledge of presswork fans the flames of descent.
My feeling is that these people should mind their own business, and worry about keeping their own side of the street clean. Your comments cementary would indicate that PERHAPS your one of these people. If your not as I mentioned, then my apologies. If you are then Id suggest you stop stirring the pot before some of the pressroom guys wait for you in the parking lot after work one day.

I've been watching this quietly and thought I should make an observation. As someone who used to run press, and now runs the prepress department, it is sounding to me more like you are a pressman who has run into too many bad prepress people. a GOOD prepress operator, or supervisor understands that the more everyone understands about ALL the processes from front to back, the better everyone can perform. Telling a prepress person who is actively trying to understand what some of the problems on press can be that would cause color management problems to go shoo back to your desk and let the pressmen do the big boy stuff is just ridiculous!

And aside from that, your comments on who should or shouldn't be hired make it obvious that you are not involved in the process, nor do you understand what is required to be a manager / owner. There is a dramatic shortage of skilled operators across all manufacturing industries, and printing is not the exception. You can only hire what's available. if you want to rant on about the quality of the operators, then go yell at the parents and guidance councilors that have told generation after generation of students that only a Masters degree will get you a worthy job, and working with your hands in industry is "menial" and you'll never accomplish anything.

 

[cementary]

And aside from that, your comments on who should or shouldn't be hired make it obvious that you are not involved in the process, nor do you understand what is required to be a manager / owner. There is a dramatic shortage of skilled operators across all manufacturing industries, and printing is not the exception. You can only hire what's available. if you want to rant on about the quality of the operators, then go yell at the parents and guidance councilors that have told generation after generation of students that only a Masters degree will get you a worthy job, and working with your hands in industry is "menial" and you'll never accomplish anything.

I've just started to write about lack of skilled personnel on the market, and there you go
I think that educational problem is very large theme and obviously an international top-question for the owners/hr-managers. In Russian realities it is easier to raise a skilled personnel in the shop rather than look for them around. That's why we've got learning center in our plant.
But i think there is one more problem — prepress, press and postpress equipment manufacturers constantly yammerin' in the top-management ears that their new superior equipment or software can be run even by low-trained monkey or even without personnel at all. While sometimes it is half-true, but most of the time it's total crap.
Anyway, as our previous press supervisor told: "there should be one worker for button smashin' and one worker who knows why they need to be smashed and in what order"

 

[Alith7]

"there should be one worker for button smashin' and one worker who knows why they need to be smashed and in what order"

I'm going to have to remember that one! I like it!!

 

[cementary]

It is natural and understandible that press operators should assume someone without hands-on press experience does not know enough to solve press issues. That is a logical and safe assumption.

The other side of that coin is… this press operator does not have, nor are they willing to consider the large amount of consistent, reproduceable, microscopic evidence necessisary to diagnose the problem.
When I mentioned the microscope evidence that shows what the operator is not seeing, their response was "nobody is going to use a microscope to look at the finished book!!"
A true, but irrelavent answer.

Here's our experience and advice from Kodak:

Sonora XP plates are cleared on press - about 1-2 minutes fountain solution before ink/impression.
Too much pre-soak (5min+) can break down the emulsion and destroy the plate.
Any ink on the plate before propper clearing, will not come off without wiping it with cleaner solution - not a good thing when in or near image area.

Missed your post somehow )))
1-2 minutes of pre-dump is way too much for sonora.
With our presses we're either didn't pre-dump at all (with bridge roller) or pre-dump as little as possible — literally 2-3 revolutions. IMHO — thats enough for sonora and you'll see much less dirt in fountain.

 

[cementary]

cementary,


For your attention .......

Alois, what i understand from your paper:
1. You don't have experience with sonora
2. You think that same water levels on press (comparing with "treated" plates) creates thicker water film on Sonora plate
3. Relying on you IMHO opinion, you consider yourself as a person who can judge about experience level of this forum members. This is really frustrating.

 

[turbotom1052]

I've been watching this quietly and thought I should make an observation. As someone who used to run press, and now runs the prepress department, it is sounding to me more like you are a pressman who has run into too many bad prepress people. a GOOD prepress operator, or supervisor understands that the more everyone understands about ALL the processes from front to back, the better everyone can perform. Telling a prepress person who is actively trying to understand what some of the problems on press can be that would cause color management problems to go shoo back to your desk and let the pressmen do the big boy stuff is just ridiculous!

And aside from that, your comments on who should or shouldn't be hired make it obvious that you are not involved in the process, nor do you understand what is required to be a manager / owner. There is a dramatic shortage of skilled operators across all manufacturing industries, and printing is not the exception. You can only hire what's available. if you want to rant on about the quality of the operators, then go yell at the parents and guidance councilors that have told generation after generation of students that only a Masters degree will get you a worthy job, and working with your hands in industry is "menial" and you'll never accomplish anything.

Its no secret that there is often friction between pre press employees and the pressroom. Understanding of the process for all parties is always a good thing, right up until people take an often very "limited" understanding, and use that limited understanding to stir up descent. My feeling is that cemetery was doing just that, by making statements that show his ignorance. Perhaps Alith, if while you were "watching quietly" you'd have read the thread from the beginning you would have seen what I was referring too. Ever hear the old saying..."a little bit of knowledge is dangerous"? As a former pressman, and pressroom manager I would not presume to come into your prepress dept and pick apart your procedures. And this is, as I mentioned after a few years looking into a light table.
And I am fully aware of the shortage of qualified help available in the industry. The inability to find competent people is often caused by an unwillingness to pay a fair wage. When a company looks to promote press operators off the broom so they can pay peanuts, they will always see a shortage of qualified help. When these same companies finally come to the conclusion that their highest cost center should be run by fully experienced operators and supervisors, and become willing to pay accordingly, the availability of good people may pick up.

 

[CClyde]

Missed your post somehow )))
1-2 minutes of pre-dump is way too much for sonora.
With our presses we're either didn't pre-dump at all (with bridge roller) or pre-dump as little as possible — literally 2-3 revolutions. IMHO — thats enough for sonora and you'll see much less dirt in fountain.

There must be other factors involved I don't know about.
We had three experienced press operators (80+ years total) a Kodak/Plate/Press technician (ex pressman) and myself do a number of roll-ups with Sonora plates a few weeks ago.
Clean blankets, new fountain and ink.
On the first set-up the operator turned on impression within 10-20 seconds of start up. The plates were grabbing ink in the non-image areas (microscopic amounts that were impossible to see on the plates) and the outside edges (circumference) were getting about a 1/4 " stripe of ink.
They ran about 150 sheets and the back steels (impression) and blankets were covered in ink wherever the sheet was not hitting the blanket (picture framing)

They cleaned the impression cyl, blankets and put on another set (same job, newly imaged plates) and let the water run 2 minutes before impression.
It ran with no picture framing and perfectly clean sheet (non-image area)
The Kodak technician said beyond 4-5 minutes of water will begin to break down the emulsion on the plate. He also said if the plate gets ink before sufficient clearing, you'll never get rid of it on press.

I don't know what could let you get such a quick clearing.
Super soft water, very strong chemistry?

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Hello cementary, for your "Enlightenment"

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Hello CClyde,

.......... I seem to recall just a few of your posts ago , that you weren't too HAPPY with your "Experienced Press Operators" re Cylinder Bearers !!!!!!!!


Regards Alois

 

[CClyde]

Hello CClyde,

.......... I seem to recall just a few of your posts ago , that you weren't too HAPPY with your "Experienced Press Operators" re Cylinder Bearers !!!!!!!!


Regards Alois

That's right, one of them.
The bearer on that press are kept much cleaner and checked regularily now.

 

[cementary]

Its no secret that there is often friction between pre press employees and the pressroom. Understanding of the process for all parties is always a good thing, right up until people take an often very "limited" understanding, and use that limited understanding to stir up descent. My feeling is that cemetery was doing just that, by making statements that show his ignorance. Perhaps Alith, if while you were "watching quietly" you'd have read the thread from the beginning you would have seen what I was referring too. Ever hear the old saying..."a little bit of knowledge is dangerous"? As a former pressman, and pressroom manager I would not presume to come into your prepress dept and pick apart your procedures. And this is, as I mentioned after a few years looking into a light table.
And I am fully aware of the shortage of qualified help available in the industry. The inability to find competent people is often caused by an unwillingness to pay a fair wage. When a company looks to promote press operators off the broom so they can pay peanuts, they will always see a shortage of qualified help. When these same companies finally come to the conclusion that their highest cost center should be run by fully experienced operators and supervisors, and become willing to pay accordingly, the availability of good people may pick up.

I think i'm startin' to see your point

 

[cementary]

Super soft water, very strong chemistry?

Re-mineralized water after RO. Chemistry by huber: Combifix + IPA 10-12%