Please help with info on this older platesetter

[boltonranger]

I really need some input / info about this situation.
My boss wants to buy a 10 year old Cymbolic Sciences 8up platejet.
(From a competitor)
This is being fostered by the local Fuji plate salesman.
He tells my boss that plates will be available for 2-3 years for it.
(to me that's reason enough to think twice)
The fuji salesman will supply us a plate processor if we buy plates from him.

What I need help with, is to know some information about this type platesetter.
Supposedly it's been sitting for 3 years and they want to get rid of it for next to nothing.
The fuji guy said that the chemistry is too high of a ph to go into the drain without some kind of device to to add citric acid to the waste.

This machine would be used to make plates for a 20" heidelbergGTO52 4c
and a 40" Heidelberg SORSZ 2c

Both these presses use the Bacher Pin register system notcher and pinbar.

This machine from what I'm told has a three point register system.
Boss thinks he can put a pinbar in the Platesetter - taped down or whatever.

I'm envisioning that this platesetter would move the plates through itself and the idea of jury rigged pinning won't work. I'm dubious about punching not being registered before imaging.

Here are some questions I have:
1. Is rigging a pinbar a reasonable solution?
2. Are you guys out there punching plates by hand after they're imaged?
3. Machine is green laser. Do I need red safelight area?
4. Are these plates going to be scarce as soon as they say: 2+ years?
4. Is a waste conditioner for the chemistry expensive?
5. Does support exist for this unit?
6. Is the company still making this type of product ie. platesetters?
7. Will registration be the issue I fear it will?
8. How does one calibrate this? Will I need some sort of densitometer? Expensive?
9. Boss made us drop $5000.00/year service contract on our existing film imagesetter because he thought it cost too much; Are these platesetters expensive to maintain / upkeep?
10. Are consumables higher cost than traditional imagesetter film and plates made in my vaccuum frame? Should I expect them to go up in 2 years or so?
11. Any other pitfalls that you know of either with the machine itself or what I'm being asked to do with it? We run conventional now - Agfa accuset 1000 / enco subtractive plates etc.
Please help - Boss wants to move on this quick and it's all new to me.

-br

 

[VladCanada]

Main reason to say NO - green laser.
Who will care for expensive YAG laser with limited lifetime in the neatest future? Coherent Co?
Green light sensitive plates could escape from the marketplace soon.
To depend on the only one plate maker, who will roll your hands to make your pocket empty at the first opportunity, would you like it?
All my words are MHO.

 

[boltonranger]

Vlad could you elaborate?

Vlad could you elaborate?

What exactly are the cons of the green laser?
If I tell my Boss don't get it 'cause it's a green laser;
his response will be "Why?"-br

 

[Happyprinter]

We were in a similiar situation about 6-7 yrs ago. We were looking for a platesetter for our company and were shown a Cymbolic Science unit. It was very inexpensive when compared to the other units on the market at the time. The warning that we kept getting from all the other providers was the same as Vlad mentions above. So we did not purchase it. Beware of the discontinuation of the green plates and laser problems and replacement costs. We were told then that they would only manufacture plates for maybe another year or 2 at the most. Well, here we are many years later and they are still manufacturing the plates and the parts are still available. Bottom line. We ran several test plates from the unit and they worked great on all our presses. I guess you have to figure out if the purchase price is low enough and in 2 years if they stop producing the plates, will you get your moneys worth out of it. Sometimes spending the money on a newer version or brand isnt necessarily the way to go although many suppliers would like to lead us that direction. Good luck.

 

[Happyprinter]

Boltonranger just a side note. Google Bob Weber Inc. I believe they service Cymbolic Science along with many other brands or they can send you in the right direction.

 

[Printservedigital]

It would not do any harm in calculating the ROI if you were to go with this option, but I'm experienced on the Green laser YAG , Coherent Lasers and I know many years ago here in the UK they were the equivalent of $10000 upwards for a replacement and that didn't include dropping it in the imager and calibration. As Vlad suggests if this laser goes, that's your CTP gone but it might be worth while investigating it's history, talking to previous owners.

Here is my view of your questions.

1. Is rigging a pinbar a reasonable solution?

IF it works well ............YES

2. Are you guys out there punching plates by hand after they're imaged?


3. Machine is green laser. Do I need red safelight area?

Depends on the plate - Ask Fuji.

4. Are these plates going to be scarce as soon as they say: 2+ years?

Yes probably

4. Is a waste conditioner for the chemistry expensive?

Citric Acid can be bought in Bulk, IBC and is a basic additive in some industries BUT the process of chemical treatment this dangerous and would need to be safely regulated as there would be an exothermic reaction (Heat given off) The output would need to be also regulated and I suspect your local waste output may contain chemicals toxic to fish and it's not just a case of getting the PH level to an acid base.


5. Does support exist for this unit?

Not Sure Ask the company that now owns their domain name

Oce Display Graphics Systems



6. Is the company still making this type of product ie. platesetters?

See 5 above

7. Will registration be the issue I fear it will?

Is it cost effective to risk findind out ?

8. How does one calibrate this? Will I need some sort of densitometer? Expensive?

Calibration of Plate systems differ slighty although the general principles are the same.

9. Boss made us drop $5000.00/year service contract on our existing film imagesetter because he thought it cost too much; Are these platesetters expensive to maintain / upkeep?

Dropping 5K a year on support then wants to run with this???? , has madness set in would be my question?


10. Are consumables higher cost than traditional imagesetter film and plates made in my vaccuum frame? Should I expect them to go up in 2 years or so?

YES Demand- Supply will always be the economic driver to cost.

11. Any other pitfalls that you know of either with the machine itself or what I'm being asked to do with it? We run conventional now - Agfa accuset 1000 / enco subtractive plates etc.

Why try and fix what already works for you? What reason do you want to change? have you considered other options, what budget are you running to?

Is this just a case of listening to someone who wants to sell you plates and you going for it because the salesman is good at his job?

 

[dpig69]

We had a PlateJet until a couple of years ago and registration was an issue. The three pins are fixed and cannot be adjusted for larger plates. Our plates are 35 inches wide so the pins only contacted the left half of the plate, this leaves the other half of the plate "suspended" past the pins. It was important to always register the same edge of the plate each time otherwise the registration would be way off because the plate edges are never perfectly straight. With the proper punch and pin system, the registration could work but I don't think those machines are worth the bother, even if the equipment is free.

 

[KevinC@EFI]

I really need some input / info about this situation.
My boss wants to buy a 10 year old Cymbolic Sciences 8up platejet.
(From a competitor)
...
Here are some questions I have:
1. Is rigging a pinbar a reasonable solution?
2. Are you guys out there punching plates by hand after they're imaged?
3. Machine is green laser. Do I need red safelight area?
4. Are these plates going to be scarce as soon as they say: 2+ years?
4. Is a waste conditioner for the chemistry expensive?
5. Does support exist for this unit?
6. Is the company still making this type of product ie. platesetters?
7. Will registration be the issue I fear it will?
8. How does one calibrate this? Will I need some sort of densitometer? Expensive?
9. Boss made us drop $5000.00/year service contract on our existing film imagesetter because he thought it cost too much; Are these platesetters expensive to maintain / upkeep?
10. Are consumables higher cost than traditional imagesetter film and plates made in my vaccuum frame? Should I expect them to go up in 2 years or so?
11. Any other pitfalls that you know of either with the machine itself or what I'm being asked to do with it? We run conventional now - Agfa accuset 1000 / enco subtractive plates etc.
Please help - Boss wants to move on this quick and it's all new to me.

-br

I used to work for CSI... the machines were good in their time because of the mechanical and optical simplicity. They were very easy to service and maintain, but nowadays getting parts might be an issue. That division was eventually sold off to Oce, then they shut down the platesetter line shortly afterwards.

Despite that, I'm not sure I'd recommend one today for many of the same reaons mentioned by other people here - plate supply, and choice of plates being the two biggest. Green lasers aren't used any more for good reasons - cost, speed, safelight needs, narrow range of plates, dirty/caustic chemistry, etc.

Have you even tried that plate type on your press to see if they'll work in your conditions?

Great machine... but way past it's prime.

(just my personal $0.02)

Kevin.

 

[SteveAgfa]

Kevin:

The PlateJet was a great device for its time.

However, there are green laser photopolymer plates
available that can run on this device, with similar
chemistry overhead to your very own violet plate.

Regards,

 

[KevinC@EFI]

Kevin:

The PlateJet was a great device for its time.

However, there are green laser photopolymer plates
available that can run on this device, with similar
chemistry overhead to your very own violet plate.

Regards,

How many plates are on the market for green today? It's a dead-end technology, and doesn't deliver any of the performance, cost, consistency, or environmental benefits of newer plates. How much longer will you be making such plates?

On the chemistry side - I guess you missed the launch of our new violet chemistry system... using as little as 40% of the chemistry as previous and competitor systems.

Kevin.

 

[SteveAgfa]

Hi Kevin:

It's great to see you as such a violet advocate! My, how time have changed!
And yet, with your recent return to visible light, it's easier to dismiss earlier generation technology.

In this case, as you are suggesting, as these lasers die with no green replacement, it indeed is a
shrinking market. I understand one of our competitors has withdrawn from this green plate market,
just as I understand that some vendors have withdrawn from the graphic arts film market.

It's a difficult balance to remain a financially stable steward for the industry, and yet serve as many
technologies as possible. Certainly we're positioned to continue to support a viable need which extends
beyond just this device, but to an installed base of platesetters in the newspaper industry as well.

But, getting back to the original thread, the concern is more the availability of spares, and especially the green lasers themselves.

Still, a great machine for its time.

 

[KevinC@EFI]

I always have to watch my wording with you around, Steve... "advocate" is stretching things a bit.

Available spare lasers is one concern, but the choice of a range of plates and a range of plate suppliers can be VERY limiting - both technically and financially - for a printer. As I'm sure you know, Kodak (and I personally) is an advocate of open systems... at this stage in the lifecycle of green technology, I wouldn't consider it an open system. Silver-based violet plates are getting well into that territory now too.

Kevin.