PMS to CMYK conversion problems

Barbie

New member
How can I make InDesign & Illustrator convert Pantone colors to the correct CMYK values as shown in the Pantone books. Right now both InDesign & Illustrator CS3 convert them incorrectly, yet QuarkXPress is converting it exactly as it says in the book. Is there some sort of settings I need to change?
 
ColorBridge worked for me

ColorBridge worked for me

I ran into this problem all the time. What I ended up doing was switching the color library I use, to the Pantone ColorBridge palette. The swatch books are pretty expensive, but I believe you can download the color palettes for free, from their site.
 
but what about other customer files?

but what about other customer files?

I have the color bridge books & that works for things I create, but what about all of my customers files I need to print? We print both 2 color jobs & 4 color jobs for people & things are not even close to matching when I don't manually "fix" the conversion of the PMS colors in InDesign & Illustrator. Any other suggestions?
 
the only place I can convert the colors when printing is in the InDesign print dialogue & that gives the PMS colors the wrong values. I don't think we can do it in our Rip program but i'll look into it. Thanks.
 
How can I make InDesign & Illustrator convert Pantone colors to the correct CMYK values as shown in the Pantone books. Right now both InDesign & Illustrator CS3 convert them incorrectly, yet QuarkXPress is converting it exactly as it says in the book. Is there some sort of settings I need to change?

What version of the Pantone books are you using? You may not be aware of this, but Pantone frequently changes the CMYK values for swatches with each production and so you may be looking at older values.

Also, be aware that Adobe's products, when working with Pantone colors, will favor the use of LAB-based alternate values for Pantone swatches INSTEAD OF CMYK values in order to produce higher fidelity, color managed content.
 
Note that if you use standard LAB for Spot AND export to PDFx4 you may end up getting LAB values for 0% mixes of Pantone colours, which may be visible in print. (Speaking from experience)
Using standard LAB and converting to PDFx1a while convering colours is safe.
 
The reason I asked about rip conversion is I also got burned once on an Illustrator eps that had checked instead of spot. Having the Rip do the conversion makes every file consistent and I don't have to mess with Adobes convoluted CMS.
 
Also, be aware that Adobe's products, when working with Pantone colors, will favor the use of LAB-based alternate values for Pantone swatches INSTEAD OF CMYK values in order to produce higher fidelity, color managed content.

Hi leonardr

Maybe you can tell me why Adobe products don't agree on the LAB values for PANTONE colors. It seems like each product has it's own look-up table. Here's an example: Pantone Solid Coated library, 363 C
Photoshop CS3: L=51, a=-39, b=39
Illustrator CS3: L=53, a=-40, b=43
InDesign CS3: L=53, a=-47, b=46

Why are these values different? How can these products work together to produce the same values when they all have different LAB numbers? Help!
 
I don't know how you are coming up with those values, so I can't really say what you are seeing.

i can tell you that we ship a single version of the Pantone libraries/swatches that is shared among the various apps in the Creative Suite so that all apps are using the same data. one thing to watch for is that some of our apps work in a single colorspace model while others work in multiple spaces - so color conversion may be taking place as necessary to your space choices.
 
I just checked and I get the same value for all CS3 Apps:

L=51 a=-39 b=39 for PANTONE 363 C

Did you tell Illustrator and InDesign to use "Lab book values" for spot colors?
 
Werby what versions of applications are you using?
Lab values converted to colour space will also depend on rendering intent and profile.
Could it depend on if you are compensating for white point?

All those LAB values are out of gamut for CMYK (ISO Coated). I know photoshop brings colours into working space (seems you are using RGB document). The other two apps are in CMYK space?
 
The easiest solution for this that I have found is to modify the PMS definitions in the RIP. That way anytime a certain PMS is called for, the new definition is used.
 
I just checked and I get the same value for all CS3 Apps:
L=51 a=-39 b=39 for PANTONE 363 C
Did you tell Illustrator and InDesign to use "Lab book values" for spot colors?

Toronar

Thanks! That DOES make them all agree. I forgot/didn't realize I had to specially check that in those apps. This is a great forum!
 
You need to pay attention to your color preference settings, too. Although the CMYK numbers will remain the same, the LAB numbers will change. If your output devices use LAB for color definition - and why wouldn't they? - then the output will change along with the LAB numbers and the color preference settings in the applications that generated them. Even the rendering intent will make a difference, in Photoshop, anyhow. I am assuming the Adobe color engine applies equally in InDesign, but perhaps I am wrong. Try it out for yourself, let us know how it works.
 
The reason that these are all different are many - the larges one being that I do not believe that Adobe actually gets the LAB values when they license the Panone library to Adobe (and others) - - so, do not blame adobe (or anyone but Pantone or X-Rite for that.

-- and besides THAT issue, depending on your color settings, even if you have a custom spot color in all three using the same LAB values - since you do not actually print with "LAB" inks, the application Color Settings will determine what CMYK recipie you may get - if you are actually going to print a spot color using a spot ink, all this is a silly waste of time as this is only used to 'simulate' on screen or on some inkjet proofer anyway.

Pantone is a named color space. Most RIP vendors who license the Pantone library are basically doing what they need to to convert your expectation into something that may resemble what that Pantone book looks like. As Leonard mentioned - since 1964 when the first Pantone book was printed, printing methods hae changed dramatically, as has the way paper and ink has been made - in 1986, I had a Pantone book that had the letters SWOP on it, and trust me, they did NOT print that book using SWOP - they did not print on Champion Textweb (which is a very yellowish pub stock that NO ONE PRINTS ON ANYMORE AND THEY DO NOT MANUFACTURE ANYMORE (so, I am puzzled why we refer to anything using the word "SWOP" anyway) - besides the paper changing how a color appears, the inks, the screen type, the screen angles - the ink rotation or order sequense (YMCK, KMCY, YMCK) - well, that has changed as the industry changes.

ALSO what has changed significantly is the BASE inks Pantone now uses to come up with the colors.

So, this is a moving target. Can you display LAB properly (well, no, not exactly) - another question - is their any method available in Adobe Photoshop, Adobe Illustrator or Adobe InDesign to display on your monitor many spot color accurately - nope! - certainly not !

Your example is a good one - a darker orange - try Pantone 151 - double dog dare ya !

when you might have a tint of that spot color, and (gasp) if you have two spot colors interacting with each other (such as using a transparency effect or having two spots overprint) - well, you are immediately in no mans land.

THIS IS NOT the fault of Adobe. This is a very very complex issue to overcome - not only related to monitors and gamut - but the shear amount of calculations that are required to determine how that color will print is very huge - one needs to consider things like "how opaque is that ink - it took decades to come up with just 4 (CMY and K) and as you can see, we have many different profiles JUST FOR THESE SOMEWHAT TRANSLUCENT INKS.

So, even if adobe fixed it so all applications reported the same pantone color with the same LAB values, we then have the much bigger issue of color managing that so we might report RGB or CMYK values - through an output intent (a special case of an ICC profile that would enable you to see and print what you will get under a specific press condition)

Again, if you are actually printing with that spot, this is all moot - it is only when you are trying to display this in photoshop or Acrobat that things get wacky.

And now - we start all over with Pantone Goe. Note that Pantone Goe is NOT something that comes with Photoshop at install - you need to download and place it (Presets/Color Swatches) so Adobe applications (in this example, Photoshop) can access it...

Hope this helps muddy things up even more than they already are - what can I say, i guess it is all a broken mess and in need of help - maybe X-rite CxF will save us after all ?
 
The reason that these are all different are many - the larges one being that I do not believe that Adobe actually gets the LAB values when they license the Panone library to Adobe (and others) - - so, do not blame adobe (or anyone but Pantone or X-Rite for that.

And you would be QUITE WRONG, Michael.

As I wrote earlier in this thread (which you also didn't bother reading) - not only does Adobe ship with the Lab values _BUT_ our software PREFERS them...
 
Are the LAB vales assuming any particular whitepoint? I am sure pantone measures Spectrally, and in profile software it is possible to compare colours spectral data to find closest match for a given lighting conditions. Mainly asking because ECI RGB is 5000k AdobeRGB 6500K
 

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