Postcard company wanting super rich black?

[Gregg]

We often use Modern Postcards for our postcard printing needs. One of their requirements is that all blacks are 90/80/80/100. The first time I sent files to them I figured that must only mean large black shapes, or backgrounds - not 7pt type. So I left my text as 100k set to Overprint. Turns out they want ALL blacks at 90/80/80/100. If anything is left at 100k, they stop production send you a soft-proof and a notice stating your blacks weren't rich black and they've adjusted your files, then you must acknowledge this change before they will proceed.

How are they handling registration with tiny rich-black text? Why not just overprint 100k?

Anyone have any inside info?

 

[doubting_thomas]

Are you sure they're printing offset and not digital?

 

[Gregg]

Had thought about that. I'm thinking it's offset, with the amount they do and the size of the print-runs. I could be wrong though.

I'll poke around...

 

[Gregg]

It's offset.

 

[KevinC@EFI]

Another option would be to print the K using flexo... on an offset press. You can get higher density that way - but obviously that's not a prime-time solution for most customers. Still, it's pretty interesting.

We did it to demonstrate the quality of our Flexcel NX system, but it's generated a lot of interest in other applications of the same principle. I'll see if I can have the video posted to YouTube, and update a link here. The quality of the final poster was amazing... with densities and saturation you just can't get on offset otherwise.

Kevin.

 

[Gregg]

Let's stay on topic here.

Thanks.

 

[John Clifford]

Wow, 350% ink coverage? I'm surprised they don't have a tack trap problem where ink gets pulled up due to over saturation. We had a problem like that at a place where I worked where doing patches for fingerprinting the press we had the 400% patch (100 each CMYK) pulling up ink and turning out a green color. Just seems like a LOT of ink, also quite costly as well.

But then I'm not a pressman so . . .

 

[gordo]

I just checked their (excellent) website and indeed for file preparation they say:
Step 4 - "Rich" Black Values
In order for color side black borders, headlines, and text to appear dark and saturated ("rich"), you will need to set your CMYK (Cyan, Magenta, Yellow, and Black) values accordingly:
C = 90% M = 80% Y = 80% K = 100%
========

I'm only guessing here, but one reason that they may be asking for 4/C text instead of just 100K overprinting, is that if you use 100K overprint on an image the blackness of the text will vary according to the image content underneath it. By using a 4/C black the variation in black is eliminated. Also, since the text will be overprinting a 4/C image, any slight misregistration will be hidden.

PS They also request scanned images at 355 ppi - which is rather unusual (using the old rule for scanned images that suggests screening at 177.5 lpi (!?) or do they use FM screening? They have the equipment to do FM, however, most companies that do this usually indicate that in their promo material.

best, gordo

my print blog here: Quality In Print

 

[Gregg]

I agree, Gordo. There site is excellent and informative. You can easily download there latest ICC profiles, they have downloadable templates for all their postcards (in both ID and Quark). It pays to download these templates, because another one of their requirements is that the bleed must be built into the document - not pulled out.

I, too, have also always thought 355dpi was odd.

I thought the same thing about the misregistration being hidden, but what if the text or rule is on white?

Anyways, we have always been pleased with the final product. So I'll keep making my blacks rich. This practice just seems to go against industry standards.

 

[claude72]

This practice just seems to go against industry standards.

Industry standards are defined low enough to suit as best as possible in most of the cases, with most of the presses, most of the RIP, most of the print-shop, most of the jobs, and most of the papers, to help designers to prepare "blindly" files which will be printable in good conditions by all the printers: that's why industry standards are below (and sometime far below!) the actual possibilities of modern presses, modern RIP, modern printshops.


This printer prints postcards... and postcards are not "the industry standards" in printing, but are a particuliar case: it's difficult to print a 350% rich black on a thin offset paper... but it's easy to do on a the thick paper used for postcard: this postcard printer uses a paper that can accept the job...

... it's difficult (or almost impossible) to print a 350% rich black with a 10 years old 4-colors press that has only an infra-red dryer... but it's easy to do with a modern 4-color press with an UV dryer and the adapted inks: industry standards, with a 300% or 325% maximum TAC, are still made and adapted for "old" (10 years) presses... but this postcard printer has the last technologies that allow him to print a 350% rich black, and his presses can do the job...

... it's difficult (or almost impossible) to have a perfect registration on a thin offset paper... but it's easy to do on a the thick paper used for postcard: again the paper can accept the job, and modern presses have very efficient automatic registration systems...

... so, your postcard printer is not working with the standard industry rich black because he works on a different paper that can accept a 350% rich black, and with modern presses that can print it... so he can offer to his customers all the advantages of a very rich black!


And as a general way of working, if you know who's the printer who will print your job, you can improve your files, improve your job, or save time by dealing exactly with the real possibities and limitations of this printer... for example:
- industry standards want a 300% TAC in the pictures... but if the printer says to you that he can print 350%, you can take advantage of a better black and better contrast!
- industry standards works with 150 or 175 lpi screens... but if the printers can work with 200 lpi screen on the choosen paper, you simply need the good resolution for your pictures to take advantage of this finer screen.
- industry standards wants 1.3 PDF, made by distilling a PostScript file, with correct transparency flattenning (what is really a correct flattenning???)... but if the printer has a very good RIP, you can save time by simply exporting your PDF in 1.5 ou 1.6, leaving the transparency active... and let the printer flatten the tranparency as he exactly needs/wants.

 

[rich apollo]

An intelligent trapping solution will create a "spreadback" on rich black objects. The CMY will be pulled away from the edges - kind of a trap in reverse. So, misregister is not an issue - well no more so than the union of any other dissimilar colors.

As the objects get small enough that the full spreadback distance cannot be achieved, then the spreadback distance will be reduced - on many systems.

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

Claude I am hearing that you say modern presses are not a problem, but I would say there are alot more factors than the age of the press. The paper being one as you said, but also the kind of ink and environmental demands. We could print more ink with "old school" ways, because we had chemicals that are not allowed today. We find as environmental demands are increasing we have to drop down the TAC.

We had a job needing rich black, we decided to print it CMYKK (two black plates) like the inkjets do. 80% black on first run 100% on second plate Great neutral black good density swift to do inrip trapping and great results. Now we do have a 5-c press, but making the most of your machine is where the sweet optimum is.

 

[claude72]

Claude I am hearing that you say modern presses are not a problem, but I would say there are alot more factors than the age of the press.

Yes, of course... but the age of the press defines more or less the kind of equipments that are fitted with it, especially the drying system, UV or infra-red, which greatly determines the maximum printable TAC.

We find as environmental demands are increasing we have to drop down the TAC.

Even with UV inks and UV dryer?

The Photoshop release sold in France has a "Fogra27" profile selected as defaut profile... AFAIK, this profile is not the exact real Fogra27, but an extrapolation that has been developped as a joint-venture between Adobe and Heidelberg to match with the last Heidelberg presses, which are able to print a 350% TAC without any problem, using the adapted inks, of course...

... and all my colleagues printers who have such recent (less than 4-5 years) Heidelberg 4-colors presses or equivalent Roland, Mutsubishi, Komori, etc. 4-colors presses with UV dryer affirm that they can print all the pictures - including the 350% TAC pictures, those converted from RGB to CMYK by people who are not aware of profiles and leave the defaut Fogra27 in their Photoshop - without any correction of the files and without any problem... is it really true? is it "french boast"? I don't know... but they print the job!

 

[akiyama_king]

Yes, of course... but the age of the press defines more or less the kind of equipments that are fitted with it, especially the drying system, UV or infra-red, which greatly determines the maximum printable TAC.



Even with UV inks and UV dryer?

The Photoshop release sold in France has a "Fogra27" profile selected as defaut profile... AFAIK, this profile is not the exact real Fogra27, but an extrapolation that has been developped as a joint-venture between Adobe and Heidelberg to match with the last Heidelberg presses, which are able to print a 350% TAC without any problem, using the adapted inks, of course...

... and all my colleagues printers who have such recent (less than 4-5 years) Heidelberg 4-colors presses or equivalent Roland, Mutsubishi, Komori, etc. 4-colors presses with UV dryer affirm that they can print all the pictures - including the 350% TAC pictures, those converted from RGB to CMYK by people who are not aware of profiles and leave the defaut Fogra27 in their Photoshop - without any correction of the files and without any problem... is it really true? is it "french boast"? I don't know... but they print the job!

Having an IR or UV Dryer is nothing to do with the age of the press, in fact most B2+ presses from the mid 80's had Ir Dryers fitted anyway, UV Dryers are nothing new either, you are obviously not very Clued up on Presses and press technology

 

[claude72]

you are obviously not very Clued up on Presses and press technology

I work in a print-shop, and I have been pressman during about 10 years... but with old offset (sheet-fed) presses (without dryer): the most recent I used was a 1995 Roland 2-colors.
So, I know quite well how an offset press works, I also know how difficult it is to remove ink from my hands, and I follow the evolutions of technologies through the new presses installed in some other print-shop that we work with...

Having an IR or UV Dryer is nothing to do with the age of the press,

IR dryers did not appear simultaneously with offset system, but only some years after, and I'm quite sure that UV dryer was not an option with Heidelberg Kord, nor with Roland Favorit...

Being serious, I well remember IR dryer on the presses in some other print-shops in the 90's, but I did not see UV dryers appear before the 2000's, even in the neighbour print-shops which often change their presses.

And the Fogra27 (and its 350% TAC) developped with Heidelberg for its brand new presses able to print 350% black appeared in Europe with Photoshop 7 in the year 2002...

... 2002... 7 years!!! oh dear, how quickly time goes away... OK, I was a little wrong, it's a little bit more than 4-5 years.

 

[akiyama_king]

I work in a print-shop, and I have been pressman during about 10 years... but with old offset (sheet-fed) presses (without dryer): the most recent I used was a 1995 Roland 2-colors.
So, I know quite well how an offset press works, I also know how difficult it is to remove ink from my hands, and I follow the evolutions of technologies through the new presses installed in some other print-shop that we work with...




IR dryers did not appear simultaneously with offset system, but only some years after, and I'm quite sure that UV dryer was not an option with Heidelberg Kord, nor with Roland Favorit...

Being serious, I well remember IR dryer on the presses in some other print-shops in the 90's, but I did not see UV dryers appear before the 2000's, even in the neighbour print-shops which often change their presses.

And the Fogra27 (and its 350% TAC) developped with Heidelberg for its brand new presses able to print 350% black appeared in Europe with Photoshop 7 in the year 2002...

... 2002... 7 years!!! oh dear, how quickly time goes away... OK, I was a little wrong, it's a little bit more than 4-5 years.

Hi, ok well i am sorry about saying you are not clued up, you must have been to run a press.

I have never run a kord but i have run a Roland 604 from i think it was late 80's that had a Full UV Spec (Interdeck and end of press)... Trust Me UV isnt new technology and i am suprised that as an ex printer you didnt Realise that...

Anyway back on topic i think??

 

[claude72]

i have run a Roland 604 from i think it was late 80's that had a Full UV Spec (Interdeck and end of press)...

I'm surprised... I thought UV dryer was a more recent technology!

Anyway... does no matter...

 

[akiyama_king]

I'm surprised... I thought UV dryer was a more recent technology!

Anyway... does no matter...

I must correct myself the 604 only had end of press uv not interdeck, interdeck was when i ran a Mits

Anyway Back to topic, i bet the printers that work for that company must all be alcoholics, i can t imagine printing 400% ink onto a Sheet.

 

[claude72]

I must correct myself the 604 only had end of press uv not interdeck, interdeck was when i ran a Mits

Ah, ok... so perhaps that the output UV dryer had been added some years after buying the press???

And I think that interdeck UV dryers can perhaps make the difference and allow printing of a 350% TAC...

Anyway Back to topic, i bet the printers that work for that company must all be alcoholics, i can t imagine printing 400% ink onto a Sheet.

Not 400%!!! but "only" 350%...

Last year we printed a monthly A4 newspaper, made by an incompetent designer who converts his picture in CMYK using Fogra27 defaut profile, and then all his pictures have a 350% TAC...
... we printed the inner signatures ourself with our old 2-colors Roland Favorit, without any dryer, but without any problem with the TAC, simply by letting the cyan-magenta dry for 1 or 2 days before the second pass with the black and yellow...
... and the cover was subcontracted with another print-shop that printed with a recent Mitsubishi, having all the needed equipement to print 350%, and good pressmen...
(this printer knows that the Photoshop defaut profile makes 350% TAC pictures, cause most of the files he receives have this issue, but he doesn't reduce the TAC because he knows that he can print 350% black without any problem)

 

[suzyb1078]

That is a strange request for such small type. You would think they would have registration issues. It does make sense (as Gordo stated) that if the black type overprints various images the richness of the black will vary. I am still surprised it is such a high amount of the other 3 colors though. Why not just double hit the black?