Preferred image file format for InDesign CS4

[Dave-Designer]

From a prepress perspective, is there a preferred file format (TIF, EPS, JPG) for raster images using InDesign CS4? I am a designer for a large retailer creating your typical Sunday newspaper inserts. I am trying to establish a consistent file-saving protocol for our production workflow, but would like some opinions on what would be best, or if it even matters. We switched from Quark to InDesign about 2 yrs ago and have a lot of legacy assets in EPS. We started having problems with InDesign CS3 dropping clipping paths, so we started saving them as TIFs. In addition, 90% of our images are vendor supplied JPGs. We rarely place native Photoshop files since most images are flattened, and we don't do any color management other than saving files with SWOP profiles.

For the record, due to "office politics", it's just too difficult to get a straight answer from my printer's prepress department, so I'm resorting to this post. And, as a designer who used to work prepress in a major printing operation, I totally respect your side of the business and take pride in creating clean, error-free digital files!
Thanks for the input.

 

[CHM]

If you wanna have all possibilities in the whole CS suit its always the best to save and link files in their native format.
This means if you wanna link a Illustrator file save it as Illustrator .ai and link it in Indesign.
The same for Photoshop files, save the Photoshop file as a native .psd file and link it in Indesign.

 

[Magnus]

Anything but EPS!

Anything but EPS!

TIF would be my pick!

We've had some really strange problems with EPS-files in Indesign CS2-CS4. Images that flips, gets lowres randomly, paths jumping around. And colormanagement doesn't work (if you one day would start using it).

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

EPS has serious limitations, and since they can contain RGB, CMYK, managed unmanaged but all work flattened usually without control I would say the risk outweights the benifit.
IF you use EPS you must also prevent transparency and effcts from being used or your manual will need to include colour management and information about flattening (dropshadows, blur etc)
Native files are so much easier if you need to fix, ofcourse you are probably intending not to have to fix? I would look at the GWG.org documents on making adds and use that as an internal format, if native PSD and AI are not an option.

 

[Shawn]

I'll second the recommendation for native .psd or .ai files. It's the best way to deal with transparency since it allows you to control the flattening settings on your end. I've also had good results with TIFFs for raster files.

Shawn

 

[claude72]

TIFF for all "standard" images, PSD for more complex needs.

Photoshop EPS was a very interesting image format in the old times of the 80 MB hard-drives (and 44 MB SyQuest cartridge), and had one (little) interest with XPress untill Quark releases XPress 6 in 2003... now, it is an outdated obsolete format...


I also agree for .AI files in InDesign...
... but Illustrator EPS files are still interesting in InDesign, as they are sometimes easier to place in the image-box.



And some people also use PDF as an image file format, for both raster and vectors images!
(IMHO, PDF is more an exchange format than a work-format... but it works! so, why not!!!)

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

With illustrations do you tell customers embed ICC or work with safe CMYK (colour managed in Application but no embeded/converted CMYK data)?

 

[JLRobertson]

Photoshop EPSs saved with vector information are invaluable for customer .psd files that have typeset elements in them.

 

[Tech]

For what's worth, I agree with Claude72's suggestions. As for EPS file, legacy versions can cause some problems but in general, it's nothing difficult to fix.

My priorities would be as follow:
1) Native files (.ai or .psd) whenever possible. If art files started in Illustrator then save them as .ai and same rule for images that are created or modified in Photoshop, especially complex files.
2) .tif for basic/flattened images
3) Photoshop PDF for file exchange

BTW, "office politics" is stupid because at it's worst, it wastes human resources on unnecessary work flows. It often creates busy work and some people get to keep their jobs but accomplishes nothing worthy to be proud of. If nothing else, the busy work can dumb down everyone involve in the process.

 

[Dov Isaacs]

If you wanna have all possibilities in the whole CS suit its always the best to save and link files in their native format.
This means if you wanna link a Illustrator file save it as Illustrator .ai and link it in Indesign.
The same for Photoshop files, save the Photoshop file as a native .psd file and link it in Indesign.

This is not really correct!

For example, for Photoshop files, PSD files placed into InDesign do not retain text as text. To maintain the highest quality of text and vector from Photoshop (assuming you don't do something stupid like flattening that stuff to raster), you should save a copy of the Photoshop image as PDF (not distilling PostScript to produce PDF).

- Dov

 

[Tech]

This is not really correct!

For example, for Photoshop files, PSD files placed into InDesign do not retain text as text. To maintain the highest quality of text and vector from Photoshop (assuming you don't do something stupid like flattening that stuff to raster), you should save a copy of the Photoshop image as PDF (not distilling PostScript to produce PDF).

- Dov

Dov,
Saving an extra copy of the same file but in PDF is not always an option depending on what kind of workflow or storage space we are dealing with. In addition, saving files as Photoshop PDF does not always translate to quality file if end user do not use the appreciate PDF settings (you may save a file with vector and live text but screw up on image settings...it happens). Lastly, I think CHM was referring or hinting file compatibility for near future where native file formats have an edge over others, but I could be wrong about that interpretation.

 

[claude72]

For example, for Photoshop files, PSD files placed into InDesign do not retain text as text. To maintain the highest quality of text and vector from Photoshop (assuming you don't do something stupid like flattening that stuff to raster),

Yes, but Photoshop is definitely NOT a text tool for Print!!! So, text has nothing to do in a PSD file, and using Photoshop for text is already something stupid!!!

... and, althought I strongly believe that the job of a printer is also to try to maintain a good quality level in its production, whatever the file that clients give, I begin to give up and think that a layout made with Photoshop doesn't merit that the printer pays such an high attention to it, spending a lot of time and energy to maintain the highest quality of text by outputing it in vector mode...
... no way... text in Photoshop is a crap job, and all that it merits is flattening to raster: crap in, crap out... and basta!

you should save a copy of the Photoshop image as PDF

I have often "saved" (or "rescued"?) butcher jobs with text in Photoshop... and believe me the PDF file is not such a wizard solution...
... first because the Photoshop text in a PDF is not treated the same way than in a "normal" PDF ("normal" means PDF done from InDesign or Xpress or Illustrator) and with PitStop it is impossible to correct it nor adapt the file for a good offset printing (remove spelling mistakes, add overprinting and change CMYK black to pure black)...
... second because sometimes the positionning of the raster object relatively to the vector objects has some lacks: for example, I often saw a gap between a vector text and its raster shadow!!!
... and third because Photoshop PDF with texts sometimes cannot be used by other softwares... in that kind of situations, the EPS format, with the text vectorization option, is a good workaround.

(last time I had a flyer all made with Photoshop, getting 2 PSD native files, one for each side, I begun to work on the first file by making a PDF... but when I wanted to import this PDF in my InDesign page, it fails... so, I used an EPS file as a workaround. For the second page, having been tricked by the PDF with the first page, I directly output an EPS... but the EPS failed, and I had to redo the job with a PDF that -hopefully- worked fine)

 

[Dov Isaacs]

Yes, but Photoshop is definitely NOT a text tool for Print!!! So, text has nothing to do in a PSD file, and using Photoshop for text is already something stupid!!!

... and, althought I strongly believe that the job of a printer is also to try to maintain a good quality level in its production, whatever the file that clients give, I begin to give up and think that a layout made with Photoshop doesn't merit that the printer pays such an high attention to it, spending a lot of time and energy to maintain the highest quality of text by outputing it in vector mode...
... no way... text in Photoshop is a crap job, and all that it merits is flattening to raster: crap in, crap out... and basta!

I have often "saved" (or "rescued"?) butcher jobs with text in Photoshop... and believe me the PDF file is not such a wizard solution...
... first because the Photoshop text in a PDF is not treated the same way than in a "normal" PDF ("normal" means PDF done from InDesign or Xpress or Illustrator) and with PitStop it is impossible to correct it nor adapt the file for a good offset printing (remove spelling mistakes, add overprinting and change CMYK black to pure black)...
... second because sometimes the positionning of the raster object relatively to the vector objects has some lacks: for example, I often saw a gap between a vector text and its raster shadow!!!
... and third because Photoshop PDF with texts sometimes cannot be used by other softwares... in that kind of situations, the EPS format, with the text vectorization option, is a good workaround.

(last time I had a flyer all made with Photoshop, getting 2 PSD native files, one for each side, I begun to work on the first file by making a PDF... but when I wanted to import this PDF in my InDesign page, it fails... so, I used an EPS file as a workaround. F for the second page, having been tricked by the PDF with the first page, I directly output an EPS... but the EPS failed, and I had to redo the job with a PDF that -hopefully- worked fine)

Please understand that I am not endorsing use of Photoshop as a layout program or for use with any significant amounts of text!

However, there are occasions where limited text is appropriate in the context of use of Photoshop and in those cases, PDF is generally a much better choice for placement into InDesign.

If indeed you have a case where such a PDF file won't properly place in InDesign 6.0.4, I would hope that you have officially reported same as a bug to Adobe (or if you haven't, please do so ASAP so that it can be fixed). We aren't generally aware of any such problem with PDF files from Photoshop.

- Dov

 

[Dov Isaacs]

Dov,
Saving an extra copy of the same file but in PDF is not always an option depending on what kind of workflow or storage space we are dealing with. In addition, saving files as Photoshop PDF does not always translate to quality file if end user do not use the appreciate PDF settings (you may save a file with vector and live text but screw up on image settings...it happens). Lastly, I think CHM was referring or hinting file compatibility for near future where native file formats have an edge over others, but I could be wrong about that interpretation.

Photoshop PDF certainly can be used as a "native file format" for Photoshop if one is restricted to only one file in the workflow. Such files can save all the "private data" associated with layers from Photoshop although such files are generally much larger than a PDF file stripped of same. And yes, there is always the problem of "what settings" although if you place a PSD or similar formats, you need to worry about the placement settings.

- Dov

 

[claude72]

However, there are occasions where limited text is appropriate in the context of use of Photoshop...

No! never in the Print...

Mainly because as soon as you find normal to have "limited text" in Photoshop, you will always find people who will pass the limit or have other limits than yours...

... and what's the limit? a tittle only on a cover of a book or a CD? but the cover is the most important part, often what make the people buy the book or the CD... and you would allow crappy text on these most important parts?
... so if it is possible to have crappy text on the front cover, why not on the back? (and the bar-code is then also a raster contone picture...)
... and if on the back, why not on the first page inside?
... and if on the first page inside, why not all the book?

... and that's how a bad designer who was giving me 2 JPEG files for an A4 leaflet tried to justify his job in Photoshop when I pointed his mistake: I explained him that it is not the right way to work, and he answered me that 2 days ago he just did an 100 pages text book, with 100 Photoshop text files, outputted in 100 JPEG pictures, insisting on the fact that :
- first he does all his layout in photoshop, always,
- and second when he brought his 100 JPEG pictures to a print-shop, the printer said him that there is no problem, this job is perfect... so, if an 100 pages book can be done in 100 Photoshop JPEG files, why not a 2 pages leaflet in 2 files??? and as this poor designer didn't understand where is the problem, he even insinuated that I was a bad printer if not able to print a text in a JPEG format!!!

So, back to your limits: according to you, where is the limit?

My limit is easy to understand: NO TEXT IN PHOTOSHOP. That's clear, no interpretation is possible, no limit exceed is possible, no mistake with the output file is possible.

Text fonctions in Photoshop are bullshit, and the handling of the text in a PDF Photoshop is a piece of crap... Adobe has completely missed this feature, which doesn't work properly in PDF and is far too much complicated to be used by common people: in all the other softwares, ID, IIlustrator, XPress... even Word or Publisher, the text is NATURALLY saved in vector when you save your file... and for Illustrator the text is NATURALLY vector-based when you import the EPS ou AI file in another software.
But with Photoshop the user has to deal with the correct way to keep the text in the file and the correct file format to output the text for another software...
... and only ONE format is able to keep the text, and only 2 formats are able to output vector text, altought Photoshop outputs about 15 different files formats... so if you want to keep your text editable, you have to use PSD files, but if you want your text to be kept vector when placing the picture in InDesign, you must use PDF, but as sometimes (often!) PDF does not work properly, you have to try EPS... really bullshit: too complex...

... don't forget that most people using Photoshop, even those making layout with Photoshop, do not know how "all that stuff" works, do not know what is a TIFF or a PSD file, and output only JPEG files!!!
... and only experienced printer/pre-press/designers and other well-trained actors involved in the printing process have such interrogations about what file format they should use... and how they could keep a vector text...

So, basically, people who know how to output the text in vector mode are those who know that Photoshop should not be used for text...
... and people who are enough incompetent to use it for text are also incompetent to output the correct file!!!

Again, Adobe has completely missed these text features: to be efficient, the text should keep in vector mode in all output formats allowed by Photoshop, even TIFF or BMP or GIF and JPEG...
... if it is not possible, Adobe should have not add these features.

If indeed you have a case where such a PDF file won't properly place in InDesign 6.0.4, I would hope that you have officially reported same as a bug to Adobe (or if you haven't, please do so ASAP so that it can be fixed).

It was with CS3: InDesign 5.04 and Photoshop 10.01.
The files came from a PC, probably a try-out or a pirated try-out Photoshop.


I report 3 bugs to Adobe...

The first was a problem in Illustrator 8, with 2 objects that I could not link together because they "should belong to the same group"... the girl of the level 1 hot-line gave me a not-easy workaround and transmitted my problem to the level 2. The man of the level 2 said that the problem came from my file, which (coming from CorelDraw) was a "poor PostScript origination" and closed the discussion.
This problem still happens in Illustrator CS3... but now, since Ill 9 and his layer palette with sublevel, the workaround is easier...


The second was a non-memorization of the window position on a second screen with InDesign CS1... the hot-line man who answered me promised that the bug will be fixed in the next updates... 3 updates later, the bug was still existing...
... and I found the same bug when I upgraded to InDesing CS3: again I reported it and again the man promised... again, 4 updates later, the bug is still existing...
(and I don't want to waste my money to buy a CS4 and still have the same bug)

The third was a problem to create clean device-dependent PostScript files to send to my imagesetter: in the CS3 softwares on an Intel Mac, it not possible to create a PostScript file using the "Save the PDF as PostScript format" feature in the OS X "Printer" dialog box... my question went to the level 3 hot-line, and a big ingenieur said me that the only good practice is now to print as a PostScript file in the InDesign printing dialog-box... when I answered him that this way does not allow to set some various and absolutely needed options of the imagesetter, options as much important as resolution, or punching, or in-RIP separation, I got the silence as an answer...

So, sorry, but now I will not waste even one second to call an incompetent hot-line or to report a bug that will never be fixed.

 

[WharfRat]

I am surprised only Dov has the correct insight.
PDF is THE format for files these days.
Illy files to PDF
Photoshop files to PDF (PDP)
- -stand alone or into InDesign - -
(Just learn create your files properly and
save your files with the proper settings)

MSD

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

PDF from Photoshop

PDF from Photoshop

Rules and guidelines are to be simple. So why not PDF has to do with simplicity.

As I mentioned before for Adds there is simple PDF protocol, with preflight, and that would be for adds irrespective of software illustrator or Photoshop. In a magazene production that would be the end of discussion, but all production is not the same, and that is why a more complex answer is necessary. If you choose the PDF road what preflight criterea will you judge the PDF. There is no way to tell just by placing a PDF if text is raster or vector. There will be a large amount of unclarity who is responsible for quality control in that workflow. (claude voices some real world problems, not from the person who truly wields the technology…*that person would probably not listen to guide lines anyway since they know best )

PDF files DO NOT give image resolution information in InDesign since they are not pixel only. I would say this is important information to the designer. In technical information a PDF from illustrator means that flattening information is used. Some would trouble shoot a PDF with a PDF editor or wash it through a hotfolder for PDF and you would not be clear on what you were doing. So keeping in native formats is a clear signal of responsibility. Just as ICC taggs are not necessary if you know what colour spaces are used, but it would be wrong to not include them as that leaves the next person unsure…*so it must be with artwork.

A PDF to a specification signalls this is print ready art/ad that has been taken responsibility for, and should be printed at 100%. Ai, PSD, JPG or TIFF is raw art for the designer to use resize if necessary, and quality control with tools such as information pannel and separations view. A tiff file tells me this is a simple photo…*as long as resolution is fine and colour is printed so thath it matches intent there is nothing more to do. Illustrations are much more difficult to preflight because there is so many more potential complications (inappropiate or unwanted colour conversions, spot colours, overprints, ink limits, rich blacks on strokes and small text, etc also since the AI file can include all the complications of raster as well as all vector problems).

 

[JLRobertson]

My limit is easy to understand: NO TEXT IN PHOTOSHOP. That's clear, no interpretation is possible, no limit exceed is possible, no mistake with the output file is possible.

Customer is King dude, what can I say?

Quite a luxury to be able to dictate to your customer base. Can they use any ink color they want, as long as it's black?

 

[rich apollo]

Something that nobody has mentioned about the Photoshop PDF is that the printer may not be able to trap it. Photoshop vector data is interpreted as CT information with what amounts to a clipping path.

To the original question - I would say TIF or PSD for CTs and .ai for Illy. EPS is obsolete. And, while I realize that many photographers capture in JPEG format - I recommend against it's use for print.

 

[claude72]

Quite a luxury to be able to dictate to your customer base.

In most cases, I cannot...

... but when I can, believe me I strictly forbid the text in Photoshop (or I warn the customer for an extra cost)


**********

Something that nobody has mentioned about the Photoshop PDF is that the printer may not be able to trap it.

You're right... and trapping is impossible because of a strange crappy structure of the text in the PDF, and it's for the same reasons that no modification or correction can be done by PitStop (I mentioned that!)

Photoshop vector data is interpreted as CT information with what amounts to a clipping path.

Not exactly: vector text is real vector text, but all handled as clipping paths, placed over coloured CT areas: the clipping path gives the shape of the letters, and letting the CT coloured area appear through the clipping path gives the wanted colour to the text...

And one problem I have often seen with text in Photoshop PDF is missing accent on upper-case letters or missing descent on "g", "j", "p", "q" and "y" or missing low part of commas...
... simply because the coloured CT area is created to fit as close as possible with the outer limits of the text, and sometimes Photoshop "forgets" to pay attention to some "extra" things over and/or under the main text and the CT is just a little bit to small to cover the whole text, letting the accent or descent uncoloured... and invisible.
(using Illustrator to examin the text shows that the accent and the descent exist, but accent are higher than the upper limit of the CT, and descent go lower than the lower limit of the CT)

I would say TIF or PSD for CTs and .ai for Illy.

.ai for Illy... yes... but only Illustrator can open .AI datas!!! InDesign cannot!!!

That's why Illustrator .AI files are 2 components files, and (by defaut) when you output a .AI from Illustrator, you also add PDF datas... and when you import your .AI file into Indy, Indy uses only the PDF part, neglecting the .AI part.
(simply try to save an Illustrator file in AI format without the PDF compatibility, then import this file in an Indy image block and look at what happens )

EPS is obsolete.

Photoshop EPS is obsolete in most cases... but only EPS allows extra pantone colours in a DCS file...


Illustrator EPS is obsolete, but EPS has IMHO facilities for the placement of the picture in an image box that AI has not...

For example, .AI files ignore all the objects or parts of objects outside the document size...
You make a business-card in Illustrator: first you set the page-size of your doc to 55 x 85 mm (sorry, I don't know the usual size of business cards in inches), and you create your card in this page... and, as you are a good designer, you don't forget to put 3 mm of bleed around your page! then you save as AI file and you import your card in Indy: there is no bleed... because the bleeds are outside the page and AI format ignore all the stuff out of the page, so the bleeds are missing...
... resave as EPS, import in Indy: you have the bleeds



*************

PDF is THE format for files these days.
Illy files to PDF
Photoshop files to PDF (PDP)

Yes, PDF is the format for files these days... but is it really necessary to make everything in PDF???

Illustrator files as PDF... why not...
... but Illustrator files are mostly 2 components files, and by defaut when you output a PDF from Illustrator, you also add the .AI datas... and that's why you can open a Illy PDF the same way than an .AI file: because Illy uses the included .AI datas instead of PDF datas which are no use...

... so, it means that when you work on a big Illustrator file, during some days, each evening when you save your daily job as PDF, you embed .AI datas in your PDF, and the next day to go on working on your "PDF" you will only open the .AI datas... so, what the use of saving as PDF if you never use the PDF part? you only make your file bigger unusefuly... so, simply save as in .ai format...


... and don't forget that Illustrator files are mostly 2 components files, and by defaut when you output a .AI from Illustrator, you also add PDF datas... so, in order to drop the file size, don't forget to remove the option that adds the PDF part!!!

(but don't forget to re-active this option when your job is finished to output a file ready to import in Indy )


In fact, saving from Illustrator in .AI or in PDF without taking care of the options and letting them as by defaut ("Compatible PDF" for AI file, "Make an editable file" for PDF file) makes globally almost exactly the same file: a two-component file containing a PDF and AI datas. The 2 (major) differences are in the control over the PDF and which part is considered as the "main" part:
- if saved as PDF, the PDF is "over" the .AI datas, you have control over the PDF options, the file is tagged as a PDF, and a double-click opens it in Acrobat,
- if saved as .AI, the .AI datas are "over" the PDF, the file is tagged as an Illustrator file, and a double click opens it in Illustrator...

... and for both files:
- when imported in InDesign, or rasterized in Photoshop, only the PDF part is used,
- when open in Illustrator, only the AI datas are used.



Photoshop files to PDF? why not... but why?
PDF is like a box... a box into which you can put what you want: vectors, rasters, links, informations, etc.
So, of course, if you wish, you can put the pixels of your picture in a box... but it's like putting a post-card in an enveloppe: it's no use, because the post-card is made with a place for the stamp and the address so that it can travel on its own, without enveloppe...
... so, why put the pixels of a TIFF picture in a PDF-box: TIFF is a file format that can handle pixels on its own, without the help of an extra unuseful box!

And if you put your post-card in an enveloppe, you hide some informations which can no more be seen at first sight... same, when you put your pixels in a PDF-box, you hide some informations like resolution and pixels number, information that InDesign can no more see and display to user.
Ok, you made the box, so you know what's in the box and you don't need this informations... but you are (perhaps) not alone to work on your files: when you give your file to a printer, perhaps that he would like - or need - to know this informations...


And I especially agree with Lukas: "There is no way to tell just by placing a PDF if text is raster or vector."... it should not be important if everybody knew exactly and perfectly the job, and knew exactly in which cases use vectors and in which cases use rasters, and use ALWAYS vector when needed...
... but today many users do not know how to do the job, or believe they know and in fact they don't and make crap: so we cannot trust the files whe receive
(each time I receive a PDF for a job, each time I wonder what is it: rasters or vectors? crap or usable file? what kind of problem will fall on my fragile shoulders???...)


(for example, asking a company or a client for a vector Illustrator logo, I often receive an AI or Illustrator EPS file (or a PDF) containing ONLY a crappy embedded JPEG picture...)