Printer Profile CMYK vs RGB

[MonsterBabyBLN]

im new here and just started to build my first CMYK profile for an old EFI designer RIP for my Z3100.

i used the built in linearization and then printed the ECI2002 CMYK and read it once with my DTP20 and then with the built in i1 as well.

the ICC profile i got thru profile maker is way smaller then my RGB profile for the same paper and settings.. and smaller then the profile from EFI as well..

do u have an idea what i could have done wrong? thnx

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

Very hard to say. Were the print heads clean and you are using a proofing paper? Are you using standard inks? (alternative brands may give you larger or smaller gamut) Are you printing high quality? (Many rips and printers have several quality /speed variables) Some papers have smaller gamuts, so it is not necessary to assume something went "wrong", it may be right. Also what RGB are you comparing to? sRGB, AdobeRGB or ProPhotoRGB?

 

[MonsterBabyBLN]

hmm.. well of course i am comparing the RGB profile for the paper with the CMYK profile for the paper ..;-)
i dont think this has anything to do with s A or photoRGB ...

and i am using the original inks of course. and always did. and the printheads are clean. linearilazed.. and high quality..

and of course i am talking about the same paper.. for both profiles.. it is HP professional proofing paper.. but again.. that cant be the point..

any other idea?

 

[Correct Color]

Creating CMYK profiles is an art. What you do is create the state of the machine, then characterize the machine in that state. And it's the creating the state of the machine that's the issue.

In setting your single-channel ink limits, then linearizing the machine and then setting your multi-channel ink limits, you'll determine the gamut of color your machine will be capable of reproducing once you characterize it in with an ICC profile.

Of course all that has to go on somewhere. When you don't use a RIP and print to a machine such as that one as an RGB printer, all the state-of-the-machine settings, as well as black generation and the like, are handled by the 'black box.'

The size of your CMYK gamut versus the size of the gamut you get from the machine as an RGB printer tells you--most likely--that the state of the machine in the black box is a good deal better than the one you made in the RIP.

(Edited to add: There's also the possibility that you printed your patches incorrectly. If you inadvertently applied color management to them somehow or another that could cause a small gamut profile as well.)

Mike Adams
Correct Color

 

[MonsterBabyBLN]

mike.. that answer doesnt help me.. but you are absolutely right ;-)

and if i wasnt asked for some contract proof prints.. i would have always stayed with qimage!..

but now i am a lot smarter.. well more educated... it was really fun!

and we are always talking about those ink limits.. and i understand that this is more important than i thought.. because my efi designer rip software has no chance to linearilize the channels..
i thought the built in linearilization (cant write that word anymore!) would do.. as this printer and program was state of the art only 4 years ago..
but.. it only gets me close to detlaE 2.6 in the wegde.. and i dont think i can tune it more ;-)

 

[michaelejahn]

Several reasons, too many to list.

Several reasons, too many to list.

the ICC profile i got thru profile maker is way smaller then my RGB profile for the same paper and settings.. and smaller then the profile from EFI as well..

do u have an idea what i could have done wrong? thnx

Depending on settings and software - some profiles can be much larger (or smaller) than other profiles.

When building a profile, we have the ability to use more data points in the profile for better quality and that is why the profiles we create are so large.

Depending on how complex the device is to model, the profile may be anything from 1K to several MB in size.

You can see the data in the profile by opening it in a profile inspection utility such as Profile Inspector.

ICC Profile Inspector

hope this helps.

 

[MonsterBabyBLN]

interesting link thank you!..

but back to the question..

i am talking about the same paper, the same hardware, the same printer, the same spectro, the same software..

once used to define a RGB profile.. and once for a CMYK..

so i dont understand your answer.

"When building a profile, we have the ability to use more data points in the profile for better quality "

why do YOU have the ability to use more data than me ??

 

[Correct Color]

I was assuming you meant gamut size, and he was assuming you meant file size.

 

[TerryWyse]

i used the built in linearization and then printed the ECI2002 CMYK and read it once with my DTP20 and then with the built in i1 as well.

the ICC profile i got thru profile maker is way smaller then my RGB profile for the same paper and settings.. and smaller then the profile from EFI as well..

do u have an idea what i could have done wrong? thnx

Sounds to me like you may have had color management enabled somewhere in the pipeline....so while you thought you may have been profiling the printer at it's full gamut, it may have been restricted by a source/destination profile along the way.

Also, how are you dealing with the extra inks in the z3100? Profiling this printer as RGB via the HP driver, they deal with the extra inks behind the scene. With CMYK (or CMYK+OG), there's usually a special process in the RIP for dealing with the extra inks.

Regards,
Terry

 

[MonsterBabyBLN]

thanks terry.

through the last days i ve gotten a lot smarter about this whole process.

i def. did not have CM turned on as i was printing the targets thru my RIP.. efi designer. which is some years old.. so there is the point.

it cannot do inklimitation or multi channels. its kinda built for this printer tho.
and uses a whats called cantone engine that splits the cmyks.. to the 12 inks...

i know this is not state of the art. but it was only 4 years ago. and was supposed to get accurate proofs.. maybe now as easy and quick as today.. but it is supposed to work.

so i am trying to figure that out before investing in new software.. if my hardware is good enough..

back to the question.. im pretty sure i found out the answer myself thru the days.

yes.. if u can not limit the inks per channels.. you will get a smaller gammut because in the shadows there is just too much ink..

could that be it ?

 

[Correct Color]

Printing your targets through the RIP you can most definitely have color management on. In fact, with most RIP's you have to make certain it's off. And some make you jump through a few hoops to do it. If you're just assuming it is...it very likely isn't.

I think that particular RIP is just for HP, and since I've never used it, I don't know what features it has or doesn't have. But if it functions like the old internal RIP on the 5500, you can just send it CMYK patches from Photoshop--or the new Adobe print utility--and get a good CMYK profile.

As far as your ink limits go, there's not one single answer as to 'if you can't set them this will happen' other than to say if you don't set them to get maximum capability out of your machine, you won't get maximum capability out of your machine.

If I were you at this point I'd consider a couple options: First is that if you're really serious about setting this machine up to proof, hire a professional to come spend a little time getting your processes in order.

Second is if you just need to accomplish one job and you're happy with the RGB profile of your printer, try making a copy of your file, converting it to the color space you want to proof, and then printing that to your RGB profile.

It's not exact, but it's in the ballpark, and it's a lot closer then you're likely to get in a good long while of trying to figure it out online.

Mike Adams
Correct Color

 

[MonsterBabyBLN]

what are u trying to say?? i was "assuming" ??
i said i definately!! turned it off... thats not the point.. i might be new to cmyk profiles.. but i am not stupid..! i calibrate my sytem for years now in RGB. i know how to print profiles..

thank you very much for pointing it out ONCE.. but again.. I TURNED IT OFF.. i chose the right paper. and so on..

"I think that particular RIP is just for HP, and since I've never used it, I don't know what features it has "

this is not getting us anywhere.. because now YOU are "assuming" things..

i didnt wanna hire a professional, nor did i want to buy 4000$ software.

i just had some questions coming up along a new path.. i was asking them here. and i got quite a few answers that helped me a lot.

i appreaciate your effort in helping, too. but if you "assume" this particular rip is a built in HP what ever feature.. or i am not able to turn off my CM for printing profiles.. then this aggrovates me and is more confusing than helping.

 

[format]

Less of the attitude these guys are trying to help you on there time

 

[Bbeens]

...
it cannot do inklimitation or multi channels. its kinda built for this printer tho.
and uses a whats called cantone engine that splits the cmyks.. to the 12 inks...

I think this might be your issue. Did you mean Contone data? Any time you send Contone data something else is doing the color management downstream. Most likely the on board RIP on the printer itself. Your profile may help, but until you take the power away from the on board RIP I wouldn't spend too much time on it. Get a RIP that does support 6 channel output profiles, not one that only accepts RGB which is my assumption from you posts.

Also, sending halftoned data vs. contone will also be faster, better compression, etc.

Bryan

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

It is not necessarily worse to send RGB data to proof a CMYK. If the RGB Gamut is larger than the CMYK of your output intent you should be able to get a good proof using absolute colometric output.

If you generate an RGB profile, then print a CMYK patch chart converted to the RGB file with absolute you can see measure to know if there is any weakness. The important thing is that the proof limits itself to the output intent, so amy images are first converted to a CMYK-tagged with the output intent.

I hope I am not adding frustration or confusion.

 

[MonsterBabyBLN]

i dont see where this has anything to do with my question.

my only question was... has anybody an idea why the CMYK profil i made is smaller then the RGB profile i made.. not more. not less.

some ideas came up.. nothing i could use tho to change yet, as i cant limit inks per channel or at all.. so the subject is closed.

thanks to hose who helped