Profile confusion

lnivin

Well-known member
I'm trying to totally understand how profiles function and how our customers should use them.

Workflow - Photoshop --> InDesign --> Prinergy

The profile is attached to the Photoshop file, which is placed in InDesign. InDesign has a different setup for Color Settings. This is output to a PDF and Refined through Prinergy - which has a third profile.

- Does InDesign replace the Photoshop profile?

- If the Color Setting in InDesign is set to CMM off, then our customer is not viewing the file as it will print - correct? But it requires that setting to keep InDesign from overriding any profiles.

Prinergy is setup to strip all profiles, but the conversion seems to be taking place when the PDF is created.

If all the above is true, how can the customer view color in InDesign and be assured the final print file will match?
 
Inivin,
The issue with color management is that "the Devil is in the details." The big issue is to decide where you want color management to happen. If you want it to happen in Prinergy, then the workflow has to be orchestrated to let this happen.

InDesign can be operated in such a way that embedded profiles are honored and untouched. Take a look at the attached screen grabs. This way of working will pass all the information through.

I have settled on color managing the PDF files. The trick is finding the tool that gives you the results you want. Acrobat's tools are getting more thorough, but I've had problems getting them to work consistently. Color managing the PDFs in Prinergy makes a lot of sense, if the CMM is good and they offer the tools you need. For example, I don't color manage in InDesign because it only allows for one rendering intent. I feel that conversions from RGB need to be handled differently than conversions from CMYK. Also, InDesign doesn't offer support, or protection, grayscale colorspaces.
 

Attachments

  • Picture 7.jpg
    Picture 7.jpg
    14.4 KB · Views: 278
  • Picture 8.jpg
    Picture 8.jpg
    14.8 KB · Views: 201
Inivin,

I can only tell you how and why I do it here where I work, and you decide if a late-binding workflow or early-binding workflow is for you.

A late-binding workflow is where you keep profiles throughout the workflow and let the rip color manage. In essence, you always want to honor profiles in this workflow, and convert to CMYK or grayscale as late in the workflow as possible. If you are using RGB and don't get a lot of CMYK in, are making the separations yourself, then I'd say this is the recommended method. Rich pointed that method out, and I'm not disagreeing with anything he said about that method.

Rich looks to also be talking about maybe CMYK repurposing, which I thought was a problem at one time until I discovered what I'll tell you next. Since I discovered what I'll tell you next, I don't really have any problems (and didn't really have problems before that, I just thought that they might be problems, but have always used the defaults, so never really had problems in reality).

Late-binding workflow is great if you do separations, but what do you do if you get already-separated CMYK? What CMYK is it?

An early-binding workflow is what I still use. It's an older-type workflow that existed before late-binding became available. You see, I get a lot of already-converted-to-CMYK images. And my customers build in CMYK. And I've noticed over the years that they usually don't change the default color settings. So I get sRGB IEC 61966-21 RGB images if I get images. I also get this RGB when I work with Microsoft products (I don't have the latest Microsoft OS or products where they've added color management, so color was always assumed to be sRGB on all their products which all of them work in RGB color). I get SWOP images.

The interesting thing about SWOP images I get are that they are converted to SWOP using Relative Colorimetric Intent. And (getting more technical here), if I plot the NPDC (e.g. G7 method, see IDEAlliance.org) of UNPRINTED SWOP (because of using Relative Colorimetric Intent) and compare it with the PRINTED GRACoL2006_Coated1v2 (official profile for coated paper), the two NPDC's almost match exactly. What does this tell me? Well, I confirmed with proofs, but what this tells me is that I'm fine printing SWOP images on GRACoL (and also G7 uncoated beta really) with no problem. In fact, what I tested and found goes along with what was said in the initial G7 How-To PDF. We can get a "natural" appearance printing SWOP separations on GRACoL. I do it every day no problem.

So it can be as easy as (first 2 steps are already done for you because they are the defaults in Adobe apps if using North American General Purpose 2, which I think is still the default color settings file):
1. Set RGB profile in all apps to sRGB IEC61966-2.1.
2. Set CMYK profile in all apps to U.S. Web Coated (SWOP) v2.
3. Make sure you honor embedded RGB profiles (to use if customer actually embedded one) and turn CMYK color management policies to Off (to make sure you're not changing customer's CMYK).
4. Set up proofing to use official profiles (if available) as source profiles (what you want to match), and custom proofer profiles as target.
5. Set up press / paper / plate curves combo using G7 (IDEAlink Curve 2, and you probably want to get a G7 Expert).
6. Sit back and enjoy color problems disappear. Let Adobe do all the conversions for you, just by using their default profiles (I only change CMYK color management policy because I want to MAKE SURE my CMYK is not getting changed).

Regards,

Don


I'm trying to totally understand how profiles function and how our customers should use them.

Workflow - Photoshop --> InDesign --> Prinergy

The profile is attached to the Photoshop file, which is placed in InDesign. InDesign has a different setup for Color Settings. This is output to a PDF and Refined through Prinergy - which has a third profile.

- Does InDesign replace the Photoshop profile?

- If the Color Setting in InDesign is set to CMM off, then our customer is not viewing the file as it will print - correct? But it requires that setting to keep InDesign from overriding any profiles.

Prinergy is setup to strip all profiles, but the conversion seems to be taking place when the PDF is created.

If all the above is true, how can the customer view color in InDesign and be assured the final print file will match?
 
Last edited:
Hi Don, I also use an early binding workflow. One question though: why use the old U.S. Web Coated (SWOP) v2 as the default CMYK profile when you could use GRACoL2006_Coated1v2.icc or SWOP2006_Coated3v2.icc so RGB stuff would get converted to some G7 flavor (while leaving CMYK stuff unchanged if you want) given that your proofing will be done at a G7 flavor anyway.
 
Colorblind,

Well, two reasons:
1. Although the SWOP profile is not considered G7, I've proven to myself, as explained in previous post, that SWOP sep is G7-compliant if not taking paper into account (and SWOP sep doesn't take paper into account, because of Relative Colorimetric Intent being used).

Do a couple tests yourself:
First: Make a SWOP sep. Make a GRACoL sep. Print both on GRACoL. What are the differences between them?
Then: Make SWOP sep. Make G7 uncoated beta sep. Print both on G7 uncoated beta. What are the differences between them?

2. If I didn't use SWOP sep, I'd have to be switching between color profiles in my apps all the time, since GRACoL TAC is too high to print on uncoated, where I can get by with 300 TAC SWOP has and print it on uncoated. I really need one sep I can print on both, so I use SWOP, which is a G7-compliant sep although not recognized as G7 sep. When I said something about this years ago, it looks like Europe got it, and made ISO Coated v2 300 profile available so one sep could be used to print on coated and uncoated. The U.S. still doesn't get it though (guess they didn't understand what I was talking about).

Regards,

Don


Hi Don, I also use an early binding workflow. One question though: why use the old U.S. Web Coated (SWOP) v2 as the default CMYK profile when you could use GRACoL2006_Coated1v2.icc or SWOP2006_Coated3v2.icc so RGB stuff would get converted to some G7 flavor (while leaving CMYK stuff unchanged if you want) given that your proofing will be done at a G7 flavor anyway.
 
Last edited:
We do want to manage color in Prinergy.

Our present setting for PDF preset has "No Color Conversion". I've also had our customers go under Edit --> Color Settings --> Emulate Adobe InDesign 2.0 CMS Off".

Is this NOT the best setting?
 
My preference would be PDF/X-4 with an output intent. This way all the spaces defined in the PDF stay where they are. Then in Prinergy you can override the output intent and use your own. Then Prinergy can convert the invididual spaces in the manner you want.

I say give me all your profiles and let me separate the color the way I want. The service bureaus and printers I worked at, and some that I work with, all have the same saying to their customers "Don't do me any favors". Having the customer convert colors is one of the favors I don't want them doing any more.
 
One of our customers was using PDF/X-4 and it was either that or whatever they had under Color Settings, but their type - which was only black in the InDesign File - ended up 4-color black in the PDF.

The PDF Preset Intent was US Web Coated SWOP v2.

Thanks,
 
Have them check their preferences for black. By default indesign displays and outputs blacks as rich black. Rich blacks are an easy fix though.
 
I checked my preferences for black and it is set up for printing/exporting "All Blacks to Rich Black" but my black type always comes out Black only. This must be the default for InDesign. Hmmmm.

So why is my program not exporting blacks as rich black.

Do you feel the confusion?
 

PressWise

A 30-day Fix for Managed Chaos

As any print professional knows, printing can be managed chaos. Software that solves multiple problems and provides measurable and monetizable value has a direct impact on the bottom-line.

“We reduced order entry costs by about 40%.” Significant savings in a shop that turns about 500 jobs a month.


Learn how…….

   
Back
Top