Replacing Offsett Press

[Quick Printer]

I own a small print/copy shop and have one 20+ year old 2 color Hamada offset press & Itek camera....a Canon 3200 color copier, BW Copier & HP 5500 wide format printer. Over the past 4-5 years we have experienced a 10-15% drop in the offset part of the business. Right now, with the economy as it is, I am looking to replace the offset press with a Ricoh HQ9000 duplicator.

I am considering this machine because it is "ink on paper" and no heat or water used in the process...thus eliminating paper curl/wave. It can do off-the-glass and direct from computer files. It will run envelopes, carbonless, 110 index, etc. It seems to be a good fit for my BW & two color offset work. I will be eliminating the press, camera, chemicals, offset powder, noise, and full time press operator. The trade-off is a click charge of .0025 and two color work will have to be done with two passes.

I have searched this site to find any comments on this equipment and have found nothing. Anyone using this or the re-labeled Savin 3590???? I do have one excellent review of this machine from a fellow quick printer - he bought the unit in 2006 and found it does 95% of what his AB Dick 9870 two color did... he opted for the 2nd color TC-II add-on unit. I don't think I have enough 2 color work to keep the second unit busy...but I can always add that.

Thanks for any input.

 

[Internal_R&D_Analyst]

Digital Duplicators

Digital Duplicators

We have several, probably an gross understatment to say several, Riso digital duplicators. We go back to GR, RP, and RZ single color models. We have had great success and partnership with Riso over the years. It may be our volume that we can command whatever we need but we buy tubes of ink and masters separate and do not pay any click charges. The current RZ model also has an optional airfeed system that is very simmilar to a AB Dick feeder. Because of it we have been able to migrate many stocks and preconverted items off of the AB Dick over to the Riso's. This unit prints 180 pages per minute and does a good job for simple single color work. If your have more questions on digital duplicators in general or the Rico units please let me know.

 

[Quick Printer]

Are the Riso units similar to the Ricoh?

The click charges are to cover service maintenance & parts. We would provide our own inks & masters. I am wondeing if I need a service contract or if pay per service would be a more cost effective route.

Also, the different color drums are pricey....especially when you need a minimum of 4-5 different colors along with black.

Thanks for the input.
Sue

 

[dynamicprinter]

I was looking at going that way as well, replacing the AB DICK with a duplicator.
Cylinders are too pricey for me right now I would need to stock to many colors to keep my customers happy.

 

[Craig]

Dito, also the screens are still to course, even on the Ricoh.

 

[Quick Printer]

I was looking at going that way as well, replacing the AB DICK with a duplicator.
Cylinders are too pricey for me right now I would need to stock to many colors to keep my customers happy.

I look at it as survival....I can't be everything to every customer. Right now I have to get lean.

I have an outdated 2 color press and camera; plus a full time press operator in a 3 day a week job. I don't see the offset part of our business increasing any in the near future. When the economy improves and business picks up I will need to hire someone to oversee the "Digital Print" department...but that will be a more flexible individual who will also be expected to work in bindery, etc.

The duplicator seems a good fit. Yes, there is a trade-off, I won't be able to offer in-house PMS or special colors. For those few customers who need a PMS ink, I can out-source that.

Initially I will be ordering red, reflex, forest green and maybe maroon ... then add brown, bright green, magenta and process blue as needed, if needed. That should cover 98% of my color needs. Occasionally I have someone ask for orange, purple, teal, pink or others but it won't be cost effective to purchase a color dedicated drum and ink for one customer unless they are a large account.

Sue

 

[dynamicprinter]

Welcome Quick Printer,
I am also a quick printer - since 1985.
The duplicators are a good idea to replace some work but I wouldn't get rid of the press if its still running good. The small presses aren't worth much and I'm assuming it's paid for. Platemakers can be replaced with laser plates or equivalent. I thought about duplicators last year but decided with the machine cost, cylinders, limited run length and drying issues it wasn't worth it at the time. If you really decide to go that way have some samples printed up on the type of work that you are printing today with solids and screens, different paper stocks and see if it fits your needs.

 

[JaimeZ]

I remember when shops were getting rid of their letterpresses and some of those shops later complained about not being to find a good vendor to do numbering, perfs and scores. Today similarly, some will get rid of their two color presses and then complain they can't get a good source for PMS color printing or for good screens, etc.

Ultimately each company needs to decide what is best for themselves, but I will keep a two color press like we kept our Windmill letterpress. Yes I understand that a good pressman is needed to run a two color press, but if one cross trains their pressman to do other jobs like bindery or even to run one of the Riso, Richo, Savain type of duplicators that you/us may have to purchase, you will have a more versatile shop.

Like dynamicprinter mentions: "The small presses aren't worth much and I'm assuming it's paid for." A lower end platemaker will get rid of the darkroom, or you can find service bureau that's still in business to get some film or even metal plates. I just am not sold on the digital duplicators as a good replacement to an ABDick like press. Like others have mentioned the screens are course, the dry times are longer for inks, and Oh those color cylinders are pricey. A small offset press that is paid for will give you better quality without having to invest on expensive cylinders for color work--just a can of ink at about $30 a pound.

 

[offsetguy]

A few thoughts

A few thoughts

An out dated 9840????? That is still a money maker for so many shops. Replace the Itek 430 with a nice CTP system or keep the 430 running if it makes poly plates. Why purchase a new machine to replace a great offset press? The hype of the digital print scene has gotten to you also?
You would be surprised how many ABDicks are still running and produce big profits for the owners. If the electronics fail you can run them manually. You need parts no problem. With the economy the way it is now keep what you have and make $$$$$$$$. Need an operator look to your local Vo Tech School?
Will there is a will there is a way.
Happy printing to you
OG

 

[Craig]

Hay Sue,
I have tossed this around as well. My digital sales are 3 to 1 compared to offset on our 9870 & 1250. I just can't seem to take a step back with a duplicator. The quality loss would be too extreme, plus the fact that you need all the color cylinders. If I were you, I would ditch the camera and look at a Xante Platemaker, the screens are much better than that of a duplicator, but not as nice as a DPM. We are running our Platemaker 3 at 120lpi. Cross train the pressman to be able to run the digital/finishing equipment when not running the press.

But if you really don't think you will be able to make this happen and the duplicator seems like it makes more sense, then see if they will let you do an in shop demo. Run some "real" jobs with it and see what you think. Hell if it works what do you have to loose?

 

[PineyBob]

Unless the quality has increased in some dramatic way they are IMO unsuitable for anything except NCR forms and church flyers.

We used to refer to them a "Pooplicators" and there was a reason for that.

 

[Quick Printer]

NCR forms, card stock, letterhead & envelopes are about all we run on the press now.
Most newsletters are small runs that go on the copy machines.

This is a very small shop - currently 3 full-time & 1 part time - in a small 30,000 market with too many other print shops in town.
Along with printing & copying, I've added in-house posters, digital yard signs, car magnets & banners.
I do the graphics. Process color work is out-sourced along with color & thermo business cards.

Here's my thinking: I have seen samples of what the duplicator can do - the quality on text is fine. The halftones are a bit coarse....but they are better or equal to what my daylight Itek camera (with silvermaster plates) is producing. Yes, replacing the camera with a digital plate system would be one solution. BUT most of the digital platemakers are too pricey for the work we do.
I know quality-wise this is a step back - BUT since I am mostly printing forms & lower end stuff, I don't think it will be noticable. The duplicator will allow me to produce what we need with one less full-time employee.... unitl the economy gets back on track.

If the economy wasn't tanking, perhaps I would go in a different direction. No, I don't want to add a lease/loan payment at this time but I figure, with the reduction in payroll & insurance, it will pay for itself in one year.

I think a 1-2 month trial period is a good idea though....will have to see if that is possible.


(Offsetguy - I have a Hamada 660, 2 color not AB Dick. The quick printer who replaced his AB Dick with the HQ9000 duplicator in 2006 is now selling the AB Dick).

Sue

 

[[email protected]]

Hi

Hi

Sue,
As a business owner you must make the tough decisions. I truly wish you well and best of luck in whatever direction you go. I applaud your actions to keep your business running and employee people in these tough times.
I apologize I assumed you had an AD Dick press. But the Hamada 660 is nice also. It is a very capable machine also.
Good luck to you!!!
OG

 

[Internal_R&D_Analyst]

Are the Riso units similar to the Ricoh?

The click charges are to cover service maintenance & parts. We would provide our own inks & masters. I am wondeing if I need a service contract or if pay per service would be a more cost effective route.

We do all our own maintenance and have rebuilt these machines several times, they are much closer to a duplicator press then a digital press. It may take some time but anyone that can fix an offset press should be able to maintain a digital duplicator.

I agree screens can be an issue as well as large solids. We are using these for mostly single color text where the volume is higher and it would cost more on a digital toner device but low enough that it's not work a plate and higher skilled/waged operator to go to offset. We will train AB Dick operators for 4-5 weeks, for a digital duplicator we train for 4-5 hours. Having several buildings with areas full of both duplicators and digital duplicators our trend is moving more and more away from the traditional duplicators. It's not the answer for everything but for the right work it may make since to bring it in and work the two as complementary devices one suited for one specific type of work and the other for the rest.

 

[TJPrinter]

We've been running the HQ9000 for a little over a month now and purchased it to fill the gap between our AB Dick 9800's and copying. It's network connected and equiped with PS level 3. I can say that the screens and halftones are not as good as our Digiplates at 133lpi when run on the 9800's but I never expected them to be.

The HQ9000 is a huge improvement over past machines and this is the first duplicator we have purchased. With the PS3 installed you have the option to set your line screens, default is 85lpi and we have changed that to 106lpi and it works great. Just to give you a real world idea of ink useage we use 1 tube of ink to run appox. 22,000 11x17s @ $35 per tube (1 sided). That's for newsletters with text, screens & photos. I did not opt for the service contract because these printers are very reliable and the first PM is recomended at 12 months or 1.5 million prints. You should know that if you do decide to go with the service contract that an 11x17 is not 2 clicks it is only 1. So run as much as you can on the 11x17s and cut down to size. You should also keep in mind that the HQ9000 is going to be much less expensive to run than the copier for those 500, 1000 and other short runs that you would not put on your press. It will save you time & $$.

I love the HQ9000 but it does not replace the 9800's but you will get more work done quicker with the duplicator and you don't have to stay late to finish the end of job, you just turn of the lights and start again in the morning. I can't tell you it will replace your press but I know it will take a lot of work off it, and that's a great place to start.
Hope this helps, good luck!

 

[Quick Printer]

Thanks TJ...your report helps a lot. We are PC based so I wasn't going to opt for the PS3...maybe it would be a good idea to ask some more questions on that.

As I have said previously, we mostly do forms, NCR, cardstock, some letterhead and envelopes. I figure the Ricoh duplicator can take over 95% of the offset work that we print. The PMS colors and what it can't handle can be jobbed out.

Most reports I have gotten also say they elected not to take the service contract.

Sue

 

[vwrome]

c900

c900

Check into the RICOH PRO C900. I think you will be more than happy with it.

 

[Quick Printer]

Thanks for pointing out the C900.

And I am sure I would be very happy with the C900....but there is a $100,000+ difference in price between the HQ9000 and the C900. In this economy I'm not sure that is where I need to be at this time. It's a difference between "Want & Need" .

Sue

 

[WallyIyanda]

Ricoh HQ9000 For Sale

Ricoh HQ9000 For Sale

I have a Ricoh HQ9000 with print, nic that just came from liease. If interested, please give me a call at 813-300-9570 or email - [email protected]. This equipment has only 849,999 copy count and I'm asking only $3000.00

 

[WallyIyanda]

Riso RZ590 Digital Duplicator For Sale

Riso RZ590 Digital Duplicator For Sale

Riso RZ590 with print, nic for Sale for only $3000.00. Just like new with all Riso benefits. Please call: 813-300-9570 or email: [email protected]. Will ship anywhere.