Service Call Rate - Xerox 700 / KM C6501 / Canon C6000

[Sterling]

We are in the market for a new color digital machine. We are looking at the Xerox 700, KM C6501 and the Canon C6000. For users of these products out there, what is your estimated service call rate in pages? For Xerox users, does it follow the information below? For KM and Canon user, how are your service call rates compared to the information below?

The reason I ask is that the Xerox 700 Customer Expectation Document states that "At an average usage of 35,000 copies or prints per month, it is expected that service will be required about once every 5 weeks."

I questioned the Xerox representative regarding this statement and he said that the statement was correct and that digital color is a whole different animal than digital black and white and that the color machines require quite a bit more service.

The customer expectation documents in the Xerox 260, 700 and 5000AP all have similar service call rates.

Thank for all responses in advance.

 

[Internal_R&D_Analyst]

If you had a big job on text weight that ran well 35,000 would take about 8.5 hours. That doesn't seam to great.

 

[GregNac19]

If you had a big job on text weight that ran well 35,000 would take about 8.5 hours. That doesn't seam to great.

By the way, it does not say 35,000 per service call.
It states in the CED, at an average volume of 35,000 using centerline paper, it is expected to have a service call once every 5 weeks. Now let examine what that call would be for. Not registration(you can adjust that yourself, not color quality(calibration is easy), not jamming(very straight paper path), Must be something simple like rollers.

Keep in mind the 700 you can replace the fuser, drums, toner, waste container, and the coritron charge without a service call.
If you have a Ricoh, Canon, or KM machine, you would have to place a service call (for the fuser and drums).
Let say you run a lot of 11X17 or 8.5X11 and one day you get an order for 12X18 full bleed printed on 13X19 paper. There is a great chance you could have worn a fuser down at the edges. On the 12X18 print you would see lines through the paper from the fuser. What would you do? Would you make a service call every time you had a job like this to replace the fuser? The 700 allows you to keep more than one fuser on hand and just switch them out. No service call required.

 

[Kevin H]

By the way, it does not say 35,000 per service call.
It states in the CED, at an average volume of 35,000 using centerline paper, it is expected to have a service call once every 5 weeks. Now let examine what that call would be for. Not registration(you can adjust that yourself, not color quality(calibration is easy), not jamming(very straight paper path), Must be something simple like rollers.

Keep in mind the 700 you can replace the fuser, drums, toner, waste container, and the coritron charge without a service call.
If you have a Ricoh, Canon, or KM machine, you would have to place a service call (for the fuser and drums).
Let say you run a lot of 11X17 or 8.5X11 and one day you get an order for 12X18 full bleed printed on 13X19 paper. There is a great chance you could have worn a fuser down at the edges. On the 12X18 print you would see lines through the paper from the fuser. What would you do? Would you make a service call every time you had a job like this to replace the fuser? The 700 allows you to keep more than one fuser on hand and just switch them out. No service call required.

The User can change the fuser themselves on the C6501, quite easily.
The C6501 is rated for 100,000.
KM Service response time in the Toronto area averages 2 hours or less.
Only the drums and coritron charge requires a service call and with a rating over TWICE of the 700 they will be few.
The C6501 allows you to monitor the life of thes e parts right from the panel allowing you to place pro-active service calls in anticipation of large runs.

Finally and very important:
The C6501 is a 100% PROFESSIONAL PRODUCTION machine. It is not listed amoungst the Office Lineup.

As fars as the Canon machine, compare capabilities and then compare the PRICE!

 

[GregNac19]

The User can change the fuser themselves on the C6501, quite easily.
The C6501 is rated for 100,000.
KM Service response time in the Toronto area averages 2 hours or less.
Only the drums and coritron charge requires a service call and with a rating over TWICE of the 700 they will be few.
The C6501 allows you to monitor the life of thes e parts right from the panel allowing you to place pro-active service calls in anticipation of large runs.

Finally and very important:
The C6501 is a 100% PROFESSIONAL PRODUCTION machine. It is not listed amoungst the Office Lineup.

As fars as the Canon machine, compare capabilities and then compare the PRICE!

100,000 prints? Keep in mind yours would be scheduled service. Xerox does not have PMs because there is no need. Great job on your service response time. Defeats the purpose if the tech has to tear down the machine when he comes.
Why would you not let the customers change their own drums? If there is a small color issue, this might easily fix this problem. 2 minutes versus 2 hours plus break down. I go for the 2 minutes. A lot of jobs can be done in 2 hours.
Also, the 700 will show you at anytime when any replaceable unit needs to be replaced.
This as states on the Xerox website that the 700 is a Digital Color Press.

I did not know about you being able to change the fuser on the KM6501. I do not sell them. I try not to give false info. I like to only toot my own horn.

 

[lfelton]

On a 6501 the operator can change the drums only after they have gone on the advanced operator training course. I don't have a problem with that, it's a complex machine and I can understand KM requiring a certain level of expertise to maintain some components. I've never heard of an operator changing the fuser, but apparently it's a pretty quick job, so that's probably more of a question of persuading KM to let you have a spare and I bet some of the larger multiple installations do this. These are not little "suitcase" fusers like in the 260 type machine and in my experience KM will rebuild them on site with new components when you have problems, rather than swapping them.

On the 700, remember that 5 weeks between engineer visits in the CED refers to 35,000 prints at A4 (or US equivalent), i.e. 17,500 SRA3 prints and that's on "center line" paper, which is a 90gsm bond paper. So if you average a higher weight, or coated papers, that may affect things. From experience with similar Xerox products, I think this is pretty much on the mark and in fact they're probably being a little conservative here, i.e. IMO you're likely to find you need slightly less engineer visits.

On a 6501, I think we're averaging very roughly 30,000 - 40,000 SRA3 clicks per service call (i.e. if you are comparing that with the Xerox 700 CED figures double that to make 60-80K A4s), which I find reasonable for this class of machine. You need to figure in PM visits, which can take several hours downtime and if you are keeping your 6501 reasonably busy those happen quite regularly. Again, this seems reasonable to me, but is something to bear in mind.

BTW, I've never seen a fuser worn by using different paper sizes, but damaging the belt is another matter. On a 6501, if you use A3 card weights this will cause marks on the belt within the SRA3 image area. Once you know this, it's no real problem, but I bet this has caught out a quite a few newbies.

Hope that helps.

 

[Kevin H]

100,000 prints? Keep in mind yours would be scheduled service. Xerox does not have PMs because there is no need. Great job on your service response time. Defeats the purpose if the tech has to tear down the machine when he comes.
Why would you not let the customers change their own drums? If there is a small color issue, this might easily fix this problem. 2 minutes versus 2 hours plus break down. I go for the 2 minutes. A lot of jobs can be done in 2 hours.
Also, the 700 will show you at anytime when any replaceable unit needs to be replaced.
This as states on the Xerox website that the 700 is a Digital Color Press.

I did not know about you being able to change the fuser on the KM6501. I do not sell them. I try not to give false info. I like to only toot my own horn.

Of course we all know that PM stands for Preventative Maintenance.
So I guess xerox just waits until the quality begins to fail? I am mis-informed, i was not aware that this modeil does not wear out at all.
In a professional environment, which i have many years experience, we even did preventative maintenance on our million dollar presses.
Things wear out, it is a fact. Why wait until they do, be pro-active.

why is it listed in BOTH sections?
Is it office or professional?

Multifunction laser printer, multifunction office machines - Best colour printer

Get started in digital production printing with Xerox 700 Digital Colour Press

Is it a robust office machine being marketed to 2 diferent clients types?
i am confused.

 

[TWinqvist]

ORC -model Kodak M700

ORC -model Kodak M700

If you really want to keep the technician away, consider Kodak M700 with ORC's.

We have had the machine now for 6 months and quality is great, we have run almoust 600K of A4's and service guy has been here only 4 times. Once for updating the software and hardware, twice for changing the developers and made the few adjustments and once when our sales guy broked the one gear in the fuser unit, by sliding it in too hard.

M700 there is over 70 ORC's with average life between 100K-1500K of A4's and you can change them back and forth. Also there is maintenance that operator have to do every 30K (cleaning developer units <20 min) and 100K (cleaning the imaging units, fusers, imaging transfer belt and these kind of things < 1 hour). What if you have to make a service call for each time for cleaning the machine? No thanks! I don't know much about the other vendors but what I have heard in Finland that Canon is also providing some kind of ORC model with training, but if you have a click model then you have a service guy in every week or twice a week to clean the toner from the machine and for other replacements.

With these kind of ORC model machines the crucial thing is to find a proper operator!

 

[GregNac19]

Of course we all know that PM stands for Preventative Maintenance.
So I guess xerox just waits until the quality begins to fail? I am mis-informed, i was not aware that this modeil does not wear out at all.
In a professional environment, which i have many years experience, we even did preventative maintenance on our million dollar presses.
Things wear out, it is a fact. Why wait until they do, be pro-active.

why is it listed in BOTH sections?
Is it office or professional?

Multifunction laser printer, multifunction office machines - Best colour printer

Get started in digital production printing with Xerox 700 Digital Colour Press

Is it a robust office machine being marketed to 2 diferent clients types?
i am confused.

They want people to see the Xerox 700 when they go and look at the 242/252/260. It is 100% professional color.

Your missing the point on the PMs. Technicians HAVE TO GO. Lets work on the machine and be down half the day because of a schedule. Not because it might need it. Proactive can be me changing my tires with 5,000 more miles left on them. Hey I know I am wasting money, but I am being proactive.
Yes, this machine is made by man and does need to be worked evey now and then. I never said it was flawless.

 

[Sterling]

We met with Canon today (by Canon I mean the local sales rep and the Canon regional / territory manager) regarding the Canon C6000. I asked about how often I should expect service calls. I mentioned the Xerox 700 documentation stated that it would need a service call approximately every 5 weeks or so based on running approximately 35,000 per month, and then I asked how often I should expect a service call on a C6501.

I haven't seen the Canon customer expections document yet (I requested it), but the Canon rep told me that they would want to set up a weekly service call on the machine. For example, Monday mornings at 7:30 a.m. and the service call would last 30 minutes or so.

 

[StrikTenn913]

Just wanted to clarify some mis-information that was stated in some of the responses above.

The Canon engine's (C7000VP, C6000VP, C6000) do offer the ability for operators who have been trained to replace engine parts. This is offered though the Customer Productivity Program.

When people quote # of impressions between service calls, it's important to note what type of work they are referring to. 35,000 LTR, simplex sheets do not equal 35,000 12x18 duplexed sheets. Just be sure you are comparing apples to apples when you are quoted numbers.

 

[TWinqvist]

Canon want's to do that because they know that you have to keep it clean on weekly basis. Like any lithopress you have to clean it or change some parts to keep it running smoothly and keep the quality high. But if you could do those things by yourself and when the press is on stand-by, don't have to wait any service personel to show up and minimizing the downtime. These are the things that Kodak knows because of it's backround in graphic industry, so you will be trained to do all of those maintanences. Only thing that you have to understand is how the press works and which way to turn the screwdriver.

 

[GregNac19]

We met with Canon today (by Canon I mean the local sales rep and the Canon regional / territory manager) regarding the Canon C6000. I asked about how often I should expect service calls. I mentioned the Xerox 700 documentation stated that it would need a service call approximately every 5 weeks or so based on running approximately 35,000 per month, and then I asked how often I should expect a service call on a C6501.

I haven't seen the Canon customer expections document yet (I requested it), but the Canon rep told me that they would want to set up a weekly service call on the machine. For example, Monday mornings at 7:30 a.m. and the service call would last 30 minutes or so.

One time a week is a lot of time to be there working on a machine. Thats 5 times more than the Xerox.

 

[gig0]

The reason I ask is that the Xerox 700 Customer Expectation Document states that "At an average usage of 35,000 copies or prints per month, it is expected that service will be required about once every 5 weeks."

We abuse our 6501. We run that amount in less than 2 weeks and I can tell you for sure the techs don't come out every 2 weeks. Maybe once every 3 weeks to a month since we've had our 6501.

 

[Kevin H]

They want people to see the Xerox 700 when they go and look at the 242/252/260. It is 100% professional color.

Your missing the point on the PMs. Technicians HAVE TO GO. Lets work on the machine and be down half the day because of a schedule. Not because it might need it. Proactive can be me changing my tires with 5,000 more miles left on them. Hey I know I am wasting money, but I am being proactive.
Yes, this machine is made by man and does need to be worked evey now and then. I never said it was flawless.

A PM on a car is a good comparison.
Do you drive your car until the thing breaks or do you take it in for oil changes regularly?
Just because a technician REVIEWS a machine to DETERMIN E what is required to keep it running smoothly.
They do just change whatever is on the list because they are there.
They check the tires at 5,000 and change them IF they need it. If not, leave the tires on and keep driving safely. Don't bother checking the tires, then pray they do not fail at a critical time.

I do not understand how the statement of a 100% Professional colour but listed in Office lineup. Marketing is a funny thing and not one of my duties...phew.
When we were prcing our new equipment at my last Printing shop, if it was listed in the Office lineup, it was NOT considered. We printers are a funny bunch of peoples.

I will never understand the logic behind no PM calls.
I would not like it if my device went down unexpectedly, rather than being able to plan a samll amount of time for it to be offline. Monitor the time until the next need for a checkup, and plan your schedule around it.
I said this before, we took our Litho Presses offline for PM...for them that meant greasing gears, etc. Should we have just let it run until it broke and then look at the gears?
Proper scheduling is part of a successful shop.
But, this is just my opinion on the subject. Others may not chose to run their shops that way.

 

[GregNac19]

A PM on a car is a good comparison.
Do you drive your car until the thing breaks or do you take it in for oil changes regularly?
Just because a technician REVIEWS a machine to DETERMIN E what is required to keep it running smoothly.
They do just change whatever is on the list because they are there.
They check the tires at 5,000 and change them IF they need it. If not, leave the tires on and keep driving safely. Don't bother checking the tires, then pray they do not fail at a critical time.

I do not understand how the statement of a 100% Professional colour but listed in Office lineup. Marketing is a funny thing and not one of my duties...phew.
When we were prcing our new equipment at my last Printing shop, if it was listed in the Office lineup, it was NOT considered. We printers are a funny bunch of peoples.

I will never understand the logic behind no PM calls.
I would not like it if my device went down unexpectedly, rather than being able to plan a samll amount of time for it to be offline. Monitor the time until the next need for a checkup, and plan your schedule around it.
I said this before, we took our Litho Presses offline for PM...for them that meant greasing gears, etc. Should we have just let it run until it broke and then look at the gears?
Proper scheduling is part of a successful shop.
But, this is just my opinion on the subject. Others may not chose to run their shops that way.

Thank you, I thought the car analogy would work.
Now, you asked if I drove my car until it breaks. Yes I do. Oil, gas, air filter I change myself when the time is needed. Just like I would with a the toners, drums, and fuser.
This is how the analogy should go.
Please explain what do you do in a PM?
By the way go to Xerox's website and it says "Professional Color Multifunction".
Have you never sold machine this size to a church or a non print shop environment that says, "Wow this is pretty color". Sometimes they have applications or cost justification for a product like this. Think of it as as old lady driving a V8 while only driving 45mhp.

 

[GotToner?]

Someone's been drinking the Kool Aid!

The fact is, you are going to have service. Now, no one wants to buy a piece of junk, BUT the number of pages that the manufacturer estimates that you will go between service visits is just not the right criteria to choose a system by.
You sound like a printer, if so, what you do is print. You print on the stocks that your customer wants. You print on the size sheets that they want. You probably want your digital press to look like your offset press. You also probably don't want to go down during a long, profitable run when you are fighting the clock. My guess is that you are very proud of the product that you manufacture and that you want to increase your business by adding the digital press.

My advice is to get some coated stocks, gloss, C1S, dull, and grab some uncoated, too. Make it tough. DO NOT tell the rep that you are bringing all this; let it be a surprise! Take the files that you are most proud of and go run some samples. Take 2-3000 sheets of large, heavy stock and run every sheet in a single, 2 sided run. Pay attention to what you have to do to make that run. Listen to the sounds that the machines make. If it sounds like you are killing the machine, you are. Check first and last for variation. Check the registration ALL THE WAY THROUGH. Pay attention to the sales reps reaction when you say "let's run 5,000 pages of this 12x18 100# cover and see what we get". Ask to meet the tech as he is the one that will have to cash the check that the sales rep is writing (read any post from GregNac19!). You will learn more doing this than reading 10,000 posts. What you will learn FOR SURE is that these machines are not created equal.

So, my advise is don't worry too much about how many pages of 8.5 x 11, single sided 20# bond that Xerox or whoever says that you can go between calls. It is almost meaningless. You WILL NOT be running those types of jobs. Run "real world" jobs and do your best to stress the machine in the demo. Keep in mind that what you DO NOT want is to buy a machine that makes your sales people take a pause to reflect on the machines ability to do the work based on the paper required or the registration, or the color drift or whatever.

Good luck and I hope you are very profitable with your choice.

 

[GregNac19]

Someone's been drinking the Kool Aid!

The fact is, you are going to have service. Now, no one wants to buy a piece of junk, BUT the number of pages that the manufacturer estimates that you will go between service visits is just not the right criteria to choose a system by.
You sound like a printer, if so, what you do is print. You print on the stocks that your customer wants. You print on the size sheets that they want. You probably want your digital press to look like your offset press. You also probably don't want to go down during a long, profitable run when you are fighting the clock. My guess is that you are very proud of the product that you manufacture and that you want to increase your business by adding the digital press.

My advice is to get some coated stocks, gloss, C1S, dull, and grab some uncoated, too. Make it tough. DO NOT tell the rep that you are bringing all this; let it be a surprise! Take the files that you are most proud of and go run some samples. Take 2-3000 sheets of large, heavy stock and run every sheet in a single, 2 sided run. Pay attention to what you have to do to make that run. Listen to the sounds that the machines make. If it sounds like you are killing the machine, you are. Check first and last for variation. Check the registration ALL THE WAY THROUGH. Pay attention to the sales reps reaction when you say "let's run 5,000 pages of this 12x18 100# cover and see what we get". Ask to meet the tech as he is the one that will have to cash the check that the sales rep is writing (read any post from GregNac19!). You will learn more doing this than reading 10,000 posts. What you will learn FOR SURE is that these machines are not created equal.

So, my advise is don't worry too much about how many pages of 8.5 x 11, single sided 20# bond that Xerox or whoever says that you can go between calls. It is almost meaningless. You WILL NOT be running those types of jobs. Run "real world" jobs and do your best to stress the machine in the demo. Keep in mind that what you DO NOT want is to buy a machine that makes your sales people take a pause to reflect on the machines ability to do the work based on the paper required or the registration, or the color drift or whatever.

Good luck and I hope you are very profitable with your choice.

Hey, I like it. Bring whatever. All of my demos on the 700 were done that way. I ask for the customer to bring their own files and their own paper they run on a day to day basis. We even run jobs for them to sell. The machine has no curl or registration problems. If you do have a little curl or registration out of whack, you can adjust this by yourself without a technician.
By the way everything I say is either by the CED or real life customer experiences.

 

[Kevin H]

Thank you, I thought the car analogy would work.
Now, you asked if I drove my car until it breaks. Yes I do. Oil, gas, air filter I change myself when the time is needed. Just like I would with a the toners, drums, and fuser.
This is how the analogy should go.
Please explain what do you do in a PM?
By the way go to Xerox's website and it says "Professional Color Multifunction".
Have you never sold machine this size to a church or a non print shop environment that says, "Wow this is pretty color". Sometimes they have applications or cost justification for a product like this. Think of it as as old lady driving a V8 while only driving 45mhp.

Please explain what do you do in a PM?
Lets keep using the car anology.
Does the manufacturer not reccomend/insist on bringing your car in to scheduled service based on distance travelled?
Ignore it and something fails that could/should have been checked and "tweaked" BEFORE it fails.
i prefer to plan my trips to my mechanic rather than breakdown during a trip and have to make the time there and then to fix the problem.

That is all i have to say about this topic, it has boild down to opinion now.
Anyone following this post can weigh the points and decide for themselves how they prefer to run their shop.

 

[X33]

1. Office or Production : that's just a Marketing game of names and positioning. Xerox DocuColors are succesfully installed in Production Environments (Printshops, CRDs, Service Bureaus, etc) as well as Office Environments (Copy Rooms, Design, Advertising, etc). I'm sure is the same for the KMs even though they are called "production" only (unless KM decided not to install machines at all in "office" environments because it's a "production" machine).

2. Preventive Maintenance, how Xerox does it (from what I've seen in the field) : when the technician goes to fix a problem reported by the customer, they have a checklist of things that they need to check before leaving. If they found something else that is wrong or needs to be replaced in advance, they'll fix/replace it. Simple.