We do quite a lot of coated stock on our Versant 80 but yes the 2nd BTR's are a joke. We've only had to replace one in the past year so I do feel like they're getting better and I'm contemplating buying the parts to refurbish the old 2nd BTR (you can get a 'compatible' refurb kit with a mettle roller instead of a rubber one which should last longer).
Shopping for a new Digital Press...
- Thread starter jkbff
- Start date
I just can’t imagine what anyone was thinking engineering a printer like this and not expecting the operator to run coated stocks or you know all of the common stocks people buy. As long as I’ve been doing this, everywhere I’ve been it is probably a 95% mix coated to uncoated through the digital color machines.
jwheeler
Well-known member
If you're referring to the KM AccurioPress 2100 not printing on coated stocks, I agree. It was definitely a frustrating point when I used to sell their gear. However, we still managed to sell a bunch of them. Just had to make sure it was the right fit. Usually legal offices, court houses, engineering firms, or businesses where they just needed to make a ton of black&white copies on 20# bond and nothing else. We also had them in lots of smaller print shops. They would just run coated stocks through their color machine because many people like the look of a color printer's black toner better. We would jump the client up to the 1052 or 6120 if they really needed to do coated stocks.
No, specifically referring to the commentary about Xerox color machines above me, though it could be applied to any competitive machine with that limitation. Uncoated only was definitely more acceptable on the older dedicated BW machines, but my point was about how prevalent coated stock usage is on digital color machines.
AP90
Well-known member
I don't think it's that Xerox wasn't expecting shops to run coated stocks. I think it was just something that didn't end up being an issue until they got them in the field and places started realizing that the 2nd BTR was doing this. And if im correct, it only does it after a long coated stock run and then switching back to uncoated it starts leaving the streaking. I think when Xerox found out about it they just figured it was cheaper for them to keep replacing 2nd BTR's than to redesign it.
Ive never tried it but I wonder if having a 2nd BTR that was only for long coated stock runs would be beneficial in the longevity of the part? So say you have a long uncoated run you put in your "uncoated" 2nd btr and run it. Then you have a long coated run you swap out to your "coated only" 2nd btr. Just a thought.
narseman
Well-known member
Much depends on the paper brand/line.. 3 different brands of 350gsm, might have totally diff characteristics. Stiffer/softer/grain etc.. Test what you expect to run.
narseman
Well-known member
I worked 10 years in a xerox shop. The owner, the most sweet mild mannered guy you'd want to meet. BUT, everytime he had to meet with xerox over their messed up billing, he would emerge red faced, angry as hell, totally out of character. Ready to do someone in.
It’s not just long coated runs, it’s coated stock in general. I can have a 2nd BTR that’s leaving nasty marks on coated stock and then switch to uncoated stock and the marks are gone. Try running coated stock again and the marks are back.
Running only coated stock on a “coated stock only” 2nd BTR will end its life very quickly. I believe that the newest Fujifilm Revoria EC2100s/EC2100 has replaced the 2nd BTR roller system with a belt system to fix the problem but I don’t think they did that on the slower Revoria SC285s/SC285, which would be the replacement for the Versant 280.
AP90
Well-known member
Gotcha. Thats different than what we experienced with our 3100. But we also didnt have the 2nd btr go out as quickly as your explaining most times. With ours it only really started after long runs of coated stocks. And wouldn't actually do it on the coated stocks during that run. We would see it when we switched back to uncoated. But we also didn't see it happening as often as you're describing either.
So I may have gotten the Konica Minolta thing out of my system now.. I have a call with the KM Dealer tomorrow, but I can almost guess word for word how this call is going to go.
I think you guys have convinced me to do a VS4100, but now the problem is its on SOT (Stop Order Taking) because of the Proficio PX500... So if the VS4100 and the VS280 were both announced November 18th, 2020 and the VS4100 is already SOT, I wonder how long it is until end of service? This is on my mind because the VS180 was announced April 4th, 2017. But now I can't get anyone to confirm the end of service on the VS180 inside Xerox Corporate, just the one dealer that had cold called us.
So, do I buy a VS4100 knowing I may only get 3 years service out of it, until I'm on my own like the J75 and the VS180 or ... do I find a way of acquiring the PX500.
How does the VS4100 handle Coated stock, especially in the 300/350 gsm area, and .. 75 gsm coated bond?
I'm not seeing anything on the PX500 that is making want to jump to that, because I have a feeling the 5th toner station they added, a guy is stuck at what they did for buy in because I'm guessing the developer material has to be matched to the alternative toner, so if you order clear or gold or silver, you are stuck with clear or gold or silver.. so that .. doesn't make a different to me.
Oh, does the headstop in the VS4100 make a noticeable difference with registration? I'm guessing FWA helps better than SIQA does as well, and the extended inverter path, when it comes to duplexing.
By the way, I do appreciate all of the replies!
I think you guys have convinced me to do a VS4100, but now the problem is its on SOT (Stop Order Taking) because of the Proficio PX500... So if the VS4100 and the VS280 were both announced November 18th, 2020 and the VS4100 is already SOT, I wonder how long it is until end of service? This is on my mind because the VS180 was announced April 4th, 2017. But now I can't get anyone to confirm the end of service on the VS180 inside Xerox Corporate, just the one dealer that had cold called us.
So, do I buy a VS4100 knowing I may only get 3 years service out of it, until I'm on my own like the J75 and the VS180 or ... do I find a way of acquiring the PX500.
How does the VS4100 handle Coated stock, especially in the 300/350 gsm area, and .. 75 gsm coated bond?
I'm not seeing anything on the PX500 that is making want to jump to that, because I have a feeling the 5th toner station they added, a guy is stuck at what they did for buy in because I'm guessing the developer material has to be matched to the alternative toner, so if you order clear or gold or silver, you are stuck with clear or gold or silver.. so that .. doesn't make a different to me.
Oh, does the headstop in the VS4100 make a noticeable difference with registration? I'm guessing FWA helps better than SIQA does as well, and the extended inverter path, when it comes to duplexing.
By the way, I do appreciate all of the replies!
SoggyWinter
Well-known member
If you're dead set on Xerox, see if you can get a refurb V4100. If you're in the US, X-digital can supposedly handle the Xerox Support certification for you.
I have a V3100 and V4100 off contract
-Both do just fine with coated stocks.
-we run a lot of coated 120gsm, 220gsm 300gsm without issue. Have not tried 75gsm coated and have not done much 350, but 350 runs without issue.
-we rebuild our 2nd BTRs and fuser belts and the rebuilds last nicely- month or two depending on volume
-the Full Width Array auto aligns registration, but does not maintain registration
-not sure on the headstop making a difference, but the registration module before the 2nd BTR needs occasional calibration. The fuser belts will stretch over time and cause registration drift.
I think the Proficio series uses Irridesse toner and developer. The Proficio series looks interesting, but I'd wait a year in case there are major bugs, especially if you can get a good price on a 4100.
Make damned sure to have an attorney review your service contract to make sure you are protected if Xerox...goes down the drain completely. They have major financial issues and their stock has been steadily dying.
After working @ KM for over 18 years, I decided to leave after all the issues my customers were and still are running into on the C7090/7100 series. Can't keep consistent color even with the IQ. From what Ive heard its gotten better with the new AQA modification in the IQ. Still, if you want to run any 18pt or higher, stay away. Working for a dealer now here in Michigan who can sell both Ricoh & Canon and for those who want stock versatility and consistent color, I would lean towards the Ricoh C7500. 5th color add on's are a big deal as well these days. If CMYK is all you need and volumes are higher than 200k / month, I would go to the Ricoh 9500 with the same 470gsm and long sheet capability. As for the KM In-line trimmer unit, its great for In-plants and small shops but if you're running any kind of production, move that flat sheet work over to a Duplo 618 or 648 based on your throughput needs. Hope this helps.
I am getting wayy deep in the weeds here now..
The full width array on the mid versant platform, is supposed to: •Full Width Array (FWA) automatic press calibration and stock profiling eliminates time-consuming operator-initiated tasks with greater productivity and quality• FWA provides perfect front-to-back alignment adjustments, optimizes tone coverage for smooth to textured stocks, and delivers consistent toner coverage, safeguarding image integrity across the page.
On the Proficio PX500, it will have FWA and a Quality Control Module (QCM) Delivers closed-loop precision by automatically maintaining color density and registration in real time...
The video (
) basically shows that its hands off, and handled by the Fiery.. but wasn't that the intent of the FWA?
The full width array on the mid versant platform, is supposed to: •Full Width Array (FWA) automatic press calibration and stock profiling eliminates time-consuming operator-initiated tasks with greater productivity and quality• FWA provides perfect front-to-back alignment adjustments, optimizes tone coverage for smooth to textured stocks, and delivers consistent toner coverage, safeguarding image integrity across the page.
On the Proficio PX500, it will have FWA and a Quality Control Module (QCM) Delivers closed-loop precision by automatically maintaining color density and registration in real time...
The video (
Not overly keen on the fact it says it corrects the alignment in up to 16 sheets...
Jbrujster (Mailing Guy)
Active member
I have a Konica Minolta 6085. 4 million clicks. Great machine. I run 400 gsm duplex through it like cutting butter w/ a hot knife!
noelward
Well-known member
I'm not a printer, but I hear things. When i hear the same thing from multiple people there is a certain believability.
Canon makes good machines but locks them up so they can be harder to service and get info out of. I find this even on their office-tech presses. But at least you can run 3rd party toner in them.
Xerox made decent machines--a couple of decades ago. Now they don't make much and a lot of it is just re-branded Fuji-somethings. It is a reseller and increasingly focused on the office, not a commercial shop.
KM makes nice stuff but tends to overstate the monthly print volume. Always has. If you maintain KMs really well they seem to be good, but in a busy shop that isn't aways possible.
Canon makes good machines but locks them up so they can be harder to service and get info out of. I find this even on their office-tech presses. But at least you can run 3rd party toner in them.
Xerox made decent machines--a couple of decades ago. Now they don't make much and a lot of it is just re-branded Fuji-somethings. It is a reseller and increasingly focused on the office, not a commercial shop.
KM makes nice stuff but tends to overstate the monthly print volume. Always has. If you maintain KMs really well they seem to be good, but in a busy shop that isn't aways possible.
AP90
Well-known member
I agree with most of this except part of the Xerox claim. I think the Versant line, especially the 180/3100 was a great printer. Our 3100 was a workhorse and did 10 million prints. But the primelink and iridesse lines aren’t any good IMO. I’m not sure why Xerox even bothered putting out the new proficio line with their money troubles. They should’ve just stuck to pumping out Versant until they file bankruptcy later this year.
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