Standard Ink
- Thread starter sugeng
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Re: Standard Ink
Yes you can do it, if you have an IGT, an analytical balance that weighs to 0.1 mg, the standard paper from EMPA UGRA, and the ISO 2846 standard. Some technique and patience will be required, but sure, why not?
Easier to just ask one of these printers on the forum for the exact ink that they use already, see if you can get it where you live, and use that. Just trust the ink manufacturers. That's turning into a greater leap of faith every day.
John Lind
Cranberry Township, PA
724-776-4718
Yes you can do it, if you have an IGT, an analytical balance that weighs to 0.1 mg, the standard paper from EMPA UGRA, and the ISO 2846 standard. Some technique and patience will be required, but sure, why not?
Easier to just ask one of these printers on the forum for the exact ink that they use already, see if you can get it where you live, and use that. Just trust the ink manufacturers. That's turning into a greater leap of faith every day.
John Lind
Cranberry Township, PA
724-776-4718
Re: Standard Ink
sugeng
All you can really do is put the ink on the smallest press you have - print solids at different densities and the next day when it is dry measure them with a spectro to see which one is closest to the ISO spec - you might be able to do this with a proof press ???l.
Peter
It is dry back that is the hardest to control - and u need to get the wet density or LAB right before you do anything else
sugeng
All you can really do is put the ink on the smallest press you have - print solids at different densities and the next day when it is dry measure them with a spectro to see which one is closest to the ISO spec - you might be able to do this with a proof press ???l.
Peter
It is dry back that is the hardest to control - and u need to get the wet density or LAB right before you do anything else
Re: Standard Ink
Dear Jhon,
The problem is, if we using ISO 12647-2 the L*a*b* value was a printed sample (with press), if we using proofing, it was dry (no fount solution) and they have a deviation with printed samples. Another think, we want to get a optimum density (also optimum contrast) and get a wide gamut as in ISO value,
Could we got it with ISO 2846?.. Thank You for reply
Dear Jhon,
The problem is, if we using ISO 12647-2 the L*a*b* value was a printed sample (with press), if we using proofing, it was dry (no fount solution) and they have a deviation with printed samples. Another think, we want to get a optimum density (also optimum contrast) and get a wide gamut as in ISO value,
Could we got it with ISO 2846?.. Thank You for reply
Re: Standard Ink
Dry/wet doesn't matter for doing the ISO2846 test. What's more important is the right paper from EMPA UGRA, and weighing the amount of ink put on the paper. The standard requires a CIELAB value at a certain ink film thickness. For that reason, Peter's method is too crude. That method would work for determining the optimum print contrast for an ink and paper. What if the ink is weak in pigment strength? What if the transparency isn't correct (the colors printed over black stripes of a minimum black reflectance.) You said you wanted to determine if the ink was Standard. Quick and dirty is no different than just taking someone's word for it.
That's why it costs a lot of money to have the test done. It takes time. That's why probably no one is doing it. It's a lot of work.
John Lind
Cranberry Township, PA
724-776-4718
Dry/wet doesn't matter for doing the ISO2846 test. What's more important is the right paper from EMPA UGRA, and weighing the amount of ink put on the paper. The standard requires a CIELAB value at a certain ink film thickness. For that reason, Peter's method is too crude. That method would work for determining the optimum print contrast for an ink and paper. What if the ink is weak in pigment strength? What if the transparency isn't correct (the colors printed over black stripes of a minimum black reflectance.) You said you wanted to determine if the ink was Standard. Quick and dirty is no different than just taking someone's word for it.
That's why it costs a lot of money to have the test done. It takes time. That's why probably no one is doing it. It's a lot of work.
John Lind
Cranberry Township, PA
724-776-4718
meddington
Well-known member
Re: Standard Ink
Are we talking about performing testing to check an ink series conformance with ISO 2846, or to determine optimum density/print contrast/Lab values (per ISO 12647-2) for a press using a given ink? John's answer regarding confirming ISO 2846 conformance has to come first, though most people simply ask the ink manufacturer for proof of conformance and leave it at that. To determine optimal density/print contrast/Lab values (per ISO 12647-2) Peter's method will work, but again assumes the ink is ISO 2846 compliant. There is software out there to facilitate this. GMG/Tucanna software's PrintControl is geared toward evaluation of printed ink in order to get process colors as close as possible to the target values of ISO and reporting the optimum printing density and tolerances, but of course requires a range of printed densities.
Are we talking about performing testing to check an ink series conformance with ISO 2846, or to determine optimum density/print contrast/Lab values (per ISO 12647-2) for a press using a given ink? John's answer regarding confirming ISO 2846 conformance has to come first, though most people simply ask the ink manufacturer for proof of conformance and leave it at that. To determine optimal density/print contrast/Lab values (per ISO 12647-2) Peter's method will work, but again assumes the ink is ISO 2846 compliant. There is software out there to facilitate this. GMG/Tucanna software's PrintControl is geared toward evaluation of printed ink in order to get process colors as close as possible to the target values of ISO and reporting the optimum printing density and tolerances, but of course requires a range of printed densities.
Re: Standard Ink
"Peter's method is too crude"
John u didn't think I would let u get away with that did u??!!.
In the real world what other advice would u give - it's suck it and see.
The ink standard ISO2846 isn't at the moment joined up with ISO 12647-2 .
All you can do is listen to other printers who have achieved the standard and see what ink they use and try it -
Thats the real world
Peter
"Peter's method is too crude"
John u didn't think I would let u get away with that did u??!!.
In the real world what other advice would u give - it's suck it and see.
The ink standard ISO2846 isn't at the moment joined up with ISO 12647-2 .
All you can do is listen to other printers who have achieved the standard and see what ink they use and try it -
Thats the real world
Peter
Re: Standard Ink
Peter:
Guess it depends on what you mean by REAL......As soon as the author asked for a Standard Ink, this discussion was no longer REAL. He was talking about ISO2846, which IS a subset of ISO12647, it's referenced in there. It's a very complicated test procedure. You need to almost be an inkie to even perform it. But that's the definition of a standard ink. All else is marketing grip and grin. Nothing wrong with "suck it and see", just doesn't let you say you performed ISO2846 when you are done.
Cheers for that,
John Lind
Cranberry Township, PA, USA
724-776-4718
Peter:
Guess it depends on what you mean by REAL......As soon as the author asked for a Standard Ink, this discussion was no longer REAL. He was talking about ISO2846, which IS a subset of ISO12647, it's referenced in there. It's a very complicated test procedure. You need to almost be an inkie to even perform it. But that's the definition of a standard ink. All else is marketing grip and grin. Nothing wrong with "suck it and see", just doesn't let you say you performed ISO2846 when you are done.
Cheers for that,
John Lind
Cranberry Township, PA, USA
724-776-4718
Wilco de Groot
New member
Re: Standard Ink
Dear all,
Why make things more difficult than they are. The Orange Proofer is there in your plant, so you can do the tests fully conform ISO 2846. You can take the APCO paper from UGRA or directly from IGT, these are the same. The IGT paper is also available exactly on the size you need for the OP and with the black band for the transparency measurement.
All discussion about (non)compliance between 2846 and 12647-2 is hypothetical. It is just a matter of the right backing (and a good, well calibrated, clean etc.etc. spectrofotometer).
regards,
Wilco de Groot
IGT testing Systems
[email protected]
Dear all,
Why make things more difficult than they are. The Orange Proofer is there in your plant, so you can do the tests fully conform ISO 2846. You can take the APCO paper from UGRA or directly from IGT, these are the same. The IGT paper is also available exactly on the size you need for the OP and with the black band for the transparency measurement.
All discussion about (non)compliance between 2846 and 12647-2 is hypothetical. It is just a matter of the right backing (and a good, well calibrated, clean etc.etc. spectrofotometer).
regards,
Wilco de Groot
IGT testing Systems
[email protected]
Re: Standard Ink
Wilco - I hope you are well
Has your organisation any data on how close the ISO2846 inks get when they are printed to ISO 12647-2 - and
do you have any views as to why the ink manufacturers don't certify that their inks will print to ISO 12647-2 .
To a printer it seems strange that I have to buy an ink that is tested to a different standard that I am printing - with nearly the same DE tolerance (I think theirs is 4)
Peter Arnel
Wilco - I hope you are well
Has your organisation any data on how close the ISO2846 inks get when they are printed to ISO 12647-2 - and
do you have any views as to why the ink manufacturers don't certify that their inks will print to ISO 12647-2 .
To a printer it seems strange that I have to buy an ink that is tested to a different standard that I am printing - with nearly the same DE tolerance (I think theirs is 4)
Peter Arnel
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