Upgrading from the Bizhub 6500 Looking for opinions

[rcreveli]

So we end our 4 year lease with our Bizhub 6500 in March and are getting ready for an upgrade, buying the machine does not make financial sense at this time.

We are looking at the following machines.

Bizhub 7000
Bizhub 8000
Canon 6010/7010VP
Xerox 7002

The 6500 has been a good machine but I expect to see significant improvements in image quality over it.

I know the Canon 7000 had a rocky start but how are the new versions, they are coming in very aggressively on price and service?

The 7002 makes me antsy first because of price and second because of paper drawer size we are getting more over 12x18 jobs ever day and I think that .4" might make a difference (Insert Obligatory "That's what she said" here)

The 7000 & 8000 seem like nice machines but KM service can be very hit or miss and 1 thing I really like about Xerox is the CRU's It seams like you have to call KM for every minor issue.

FYI I have run A lot of Xerox and Canons over the years and now the 6500 I do not have a bias toward manufacturer as long as the meet our criteria.

 

[Josh]

What kind of volume are you doing?

What specific improvements are you looking for?

I'd be very wary of the 7002, everyone who has one seems to have problems! (know of several locally that have issues with colour stability etc...)

From speaking to KM the 7/8000 machines seem to have far more parts which are user serviceable and they have varying levels of customer training available.

 

[rcreveli]

Volumes will be between 50k and 100k per month initially. Here's the list of improvements I've been working on

1 Smoother Gradients - Eliminate most stepping

2. Color consistency across the sheet and run especially with heavy solids

3 Color Gamut - Better pantone matching

4. More/Better Color profile management (The 6500 system is clunky and outdated)

5. Better grayscale in a CMYK Job

6. Skew adjust -

7. Improved registration across the run, the 6500 is good we would like great.

 

[X33]

most of the improvements you are looking for are very hard to achieve on any kind of machine.

Take some files that show gradients, grayscales, etc and print them in all machines. You need to be your own judge in IQ. Print also a set in your current KM6500 and take it with you so you can compare.

 

[rcreveli]

X33, that's our plan. I'm actually going to do a double blind test with a few of our people and tests from the machines, including our 6500.

 

[msaeger]

FYI you didn't say you were looking at a Ricoh but the c720/c900/c901 all can be run with customer swapable units.

 

[rcreveli]

The problem with the Ricoh line is getting someone to call you back. I have a machine under Ikon and here's been my experience so far

6 months getting the service contract implemented properly with 2 different reps

Contacted by a third still current rep (I think)
Requested detailed info on the 720 (Xerox and canon call it a Customer Expectation Document) on Oct .18
Invited to a Demo Show November 11 by email

That's the contact I've had so far. In our criteria list we have a place for dealer relationship, it's not the highest ranked item but it's important. If I can't get Ricoh to sell me a machine I can't imagine what would happen when the proverbial shit hits the fan.

 

[UberTech]

Volumes will be between 50k and 100k per month initially. Here's the list of improvements I've been working on

1 Smoother Gradients - Eliminate most stepping

This engine is perfectly capable of smooth gradients. This is usually a case of the engine is willing but the file is weak. I can generate a perfect gradation using internal test charts everytime. You should search this forum for tips to better gradation printing.

2. Color consistency across the sheet and run especially with heavy solids

the dE for the c6500 was like 9 or something, for the 6501 it dropped to 4-5. I haven't seen specs for the c6000/c7000 but if you see what they have done this time to fix this I think you will be plesantly surprised. For example online density testing of the stock and automated inboard outboard balancing

3 Color Gamut - Better pantone matching

What rip are you using? If it is a creo make sure they have updated the pantone library. Initially it was pretty terrible but now it is bang on. Remeber the pantone library is NOT the colourbridge on the creo. It should match you coated/uncoated swatch.

4. More/Better Color profile management (The 6500 system is clunky and outdated)

Not sure what you mean here. As a rule you either have colour management turned on, on the rip and off at DTP, or on at DTP and off at the rip.

5. Better grayscale in a CMYK Job

You mean 4 colour gray? All digital machines are crap at that, lets hope the new ones do better.

6. Skew adjust -

You have this already, check you user guide for chart adjust.

7. Improved registration across the run, the 6500 is good we would like great.

If you want perfect registration you need to produce the perfect enviroment. Infact this is true for everything to do with digital, especially colour.

 

[OutSourceD]

If you have a KM why would you even consider another brand? You will not find a finer print. You will not find a better price point on the equipment or the clicks. Done deal, 'Nuff Said, right?

If you are upgrading, get the 8000 series, if you want to save a ton of dough, get a used 6500 or 6501 for under $10,000 cash. I have two 6500's and run them to heck and back every month with narry a complaint.

BTW: My service technicians are Johnny-on-the-spot. I see them maybe once or twice a month. You might want to look at a new service group instead of a new brand of printer/press.

 

[bompi]

So we end our 4 year lease with our Bizhub 6500 in March and are getting ready for an upgrade, buying the machine does not make financial sense at this time.

We are looking at the following machines.

Bizhub 7000
Bizhub 8000
Canon 6010/7010VP
Xerox 7002

The 6500 has been a good machine but I expect to see significant improvements in image quality over it.

I know the Canon 7000 had a rocky start but how are the new versions, they are coming in very aggressively on price and service?

The 7002 makes me antsy first because of price and second because of paper drawer size we are getting more over 12x18 jobs ever day and I think that .4" might make a difference (Insert Obligatory "That's what she said" here)

The 7000 & 8000 seem like nice machines but KM service can be very hit or miss and 1 thing I really like about Xerox is the CRU's It seams like you have to call KM for every minor issue.

FYI I have run A lot of Xerox and Canons over the years and now the 6500 I do not have a bias toward manufacturer as long as the meet our criteria.

Anhée I finished the lease agreement with Xerox, and I wanted to update on a superior system that will improve the performance and quality that now produce with my DC250.
I have reviewed almost all the machines you mentioned, KM7000 and KM8000, the Xerox 7002 and the canon vp 6000/7000 (the 6010 and 7010 were not yet out), then for the sake I decided to try the Ricoh and the final choice is went right on the Ricoh C901. What I can say is that between the KM7000 and other equipment choices much difference, the KM7000 is an improvement of the old km6500, the others are placed on a higher market segment, machine are more important as size, cost and able to do a lot more production.
The KM7000 is a machine that costs € 45K, the others cost around € 100k and are ideal for production of at least 50,000 prints per month.

 

[benny123]

New Canon's are definitley worth a look at.

 

[rcreveli]

To answer a few questions

I like my KM, why look at other machines? I came out of the Alphagraphics system and would have never looked at the KM back then, we took a big risk on the machine and it paid off. Why would I not look at other machines to see who is leap frogging who.

I am using a fiery controller on all of our machines and will probably continue to do so.

I am looking for skew adjust in RIP on a job by job basis.

When I say the color control is clunky, I mean that the 6500 tends to run hot M&Y so we have a few profiles in Rip to adjust to more acceptable level but setting those up is a Royal PITA, and tweaking the even more so.

 

[msaeger]

The problem with the Ricoh line is getting someone to call you back. I have a machine under Ikon and here's been my experience so far

6 months getting the service contract implemented properly with 2 different reps

Contacted by a third still current rep (I think)
Requested detailed info on the 720 (Xerox and canon call it a Customer Expectation Document) on Oct .18
Invited to a Demo Show November 11 by email

That's the contact I've had so far. In our criteria list we have a place for dealer relationship, it's not the highest ranked item but it's important. If I can't get Ricoh to sell me a machine I can't imagine what would happen when the proverbial shit hits the fan.

Wow that sucks they need to get less comfortable chairs in that office and get those sales people out of there. You could try calling Ricoh directly or another dealer. Service and sales run separately for the most part after the sale you shouldn't need to deal with the sales side anymore for a while

 

[UberTech]

To answer a few questions

I like my KM, why look at other machines? I came out of the Alphagraphics system and would have never looked at the KM back then, we took a big risk on the machine and it paid off. Why would I not look at other machines to see who is leap frogging who.

I am using a fiery controller on all of our machines and will probably continue to do so.

I am looking for skew adjust in RIP on a job by job basis.

When I say the color control is clunky, I mean that the 6500 tends to run hot M&Y so we have a few profiles in Rip to adjust to more acceptable level but setting those up is a Royal PITA, and tweaking the even more so.

Yes you are correct KM machines seem to run hot on M, Check your destination profiles are at V4. The updated profiles come out on another CD with the shipped Fiery and rarely make it to the RIP for some reason. Adjusting colour on the Fiery is cumbersome, but that's Fiery, Version 5 CWS doesn't help. You could try the auto-gray in the output profile editor. The Creo is really easy to manipulate colour so maybe look at that. Or get the GA kit for the fiery and use the image viewer to adjust colour. You can save curves there and it's ALOT easier than mucking around with profiles.

Skew control on a job by job basis? This sounds painful. Learn the chart adjust and store paper profiles. If you have to adjust skew for every job you got a problem somewhere.

 

[gcspec]

My honest opinion here. Again, as I always state, I am a Xerox employee, but owned a print shop for 18 years before coming to work here. I owned equipment in my days as a printer from everybody BUT Xerox. There, now that the bias has been revealed...

Everything I have seen so far, leads me to highly recommend looking at the Xerox Color 800 digital press. Of course, you have to be able to justify the purchase and click pricing in your business. What you are asking about however, I do have about 20 customers hitting monthly using a Xerox 700 in my own territory (can't speak for anybody else here) and are all very happy. 50k (I assume 12X18's) is no problem for that machine, 100k starts to really suck a lot of timem, but CAN be done. (again, I also assume a lot of heavy stocks and coated which it is no secret that the Xerox 700 engine will slow down for)

The gradients are simply not able to matched by the other machines and the color consistency is also superior with the Xerox EA machines. Everything is life requires abiliity - skilled operators, good files - iface it, if it was easy, every print shop would produce the same excellent work and there would be no need for these discussions at all.

Look at the whole picture - service coverage, total cost to own, availability of parts, training and support, etc. If you buy the "best printer", but there are no parts for it and nobody in your area can fix it, it's useless! Don't forget, bad files can make any printer, regardless of how "awesome" it is, look like a P.O.S.

 

[neprint]

We just upgraded from a KM6500 to the KM8000 - only running 1 week but the output has been great. Our 6500 was good (yes did run hot M - set a lower M in the system profile and no add'l problems).
The 8000 install was smooth - we ran production by mid-afternoon.
The uniformity across the sheet (all sizes) seems better; the depth and richness of colors seems better.
Running Fiery and CWS5.2
Our comparisons (to Xerox new C800/1000) the KM package was just significantly lower priced.
Time will tell on the overall results of the new KM8000 (we are running ~100,000/month). but thus far the results are very good.

 

[Zwicker Press]

So we end our 4 year lease with our Bizhub 6500 in March and are getting ready for an upgrade, buying the machine does not make financial sense at this time.
.

Also @ neprint,


Was yr lease FMV? And what did you get for a buy out offer? How many clicks on the machine?

Similar situation here, just curious

 

[Despotes]

Have two C6500s, see new post here: http://printplanet.com/forums/digital-printing-discussion/24650-replacing-2-konica-6500s

We have liked them but thier light solds have been problematic. Service, parts availability have been great. The dealer we work with no longer sells Konica and is now a Xerox house. The former Canon House is now Ricoh and Konica has taken over the business from the current dealer.

Who has experiece dealing with KMBS directly? I have pulled my hair out dealing with thier billing\MAP program and with thier pruchase of Danka have reservations about service.

We run between 200,000 and 500,000 copiers ber ponth on these two C6500s and one Xerox 700.

 

[neprint]

We are dealing with KM directly (direct with a branch) in New England.

We agree that the machines are only as good as the service. Our experience has been terrific. It is also somewhat directly related to the specific service tech....but again our experience is terrific.

Response time has not been a problem...we also have (2) 6500's which alleviates the downtime issue somewhat. I believe our online stats as measured by KM is 96% uptime with 3.14 hr response time by service.

We have not had any issues with service billing but they are a large company so anything is possible.

We have had KM equipment direct with a branch for 5 years.

 

[salecha]

We just upgraded from a KM6500 to the KM8000 - only running 1 week but the output has been great. Our 6500 was good (yes did run hot M - set a lower M in the system profile and no add'l problems).
The 8000 install was smooth - we ran production by mid-afternoon.
The uniformity across the sheet (all sizes) seems better; the depth and richness of colors seems better.
Running Fiery and CWS5.2
Our comparisons (to Xerox new C800/1000) the KM package was just significantly lower priced.
Time will tell on the overall results of the new KM8000 (we are running ~100,000/month). but thus far the results are very good.

Greetings. What was the offer on Xerox 800 & 1000. Service for KM8000 is not available directly in our market & it is thru dealer. If you do not want to share pricing details publicly, I request you to email me at [email protected].
This information will help me. Thanks.
Salecha