Versant 180 Envelope Color Nightmare

ReproElectroProspero

Well-known member
I have been having CONSISTENT issues getting a customer's shade of blue to print properly on envelopes. Service tech blamed it on humidity. Bought an industrial humidifier and got the machine's room within spec...still there.

Ldp08tN.jpg


Today I decided to properly troubleshoot this issue to see if it really was just the blue. It mostly is, but shows up with other colors slightly. This happens on both side seam and diag seem. I've tried pretty much everything I can think of...all paper weight settings, even our custom ones for linen or 350gsm card stock (super high voltage) that the tech previously set up for us. I've rotated the envelope 180 degrees, still shows up. I've messed with every single option I can think of on the FreeFlow, tried all the color settings, dpi settings, quality settings...still happens.

When I use uncoated stock (without telling the machine it's an envelope...treated as 9.5"x4.1" regular stock) at the highest possible wieghts is when I get the best blue in the image...but it's still not acceptable.

Any ideas on what this could be? I want to be prepared when the tech comes in and finds another reason to tell me why this machine does this when it's sold as compatible with envelopes.
 

gregbatch

Well-known member
When you say "All have no change", do you mean nothing at all - better or worse? Are the colors in the document Pantone Spot, CMYK, or RGB? Will this same file print correctly on a plain sheet of paper?
 

ReproElectroProspero

Well-known member
When you say "All have no change", do you mean nothing at all - better or worse? Are the colors in the document Pantone Spot, CMYK, or RGB?

It seems to get "better" when I use the heaviest stock weight settings possible. The leftmost blues in the image I linked are the best I've gotten it, but it's not consistently that good. It'll look more like the middle bottom blue most of the time. The "good" one was done with a "Heavy Card", 305-350gsm setting. I believe "Heavy Card" was a custom profile created by our tech that is basically uncoated but with more voltage, as we had issues similar to this on our business card stock.

What perplexes me is how it really only shows up in this particular shade of blue. The darker I go, the less it shows up. The blue in question is c100 m90 y0 k10 (bottom left and middle examples are this color) The other colors are me testing how much this is a cyan issue or not. Seems to lightly show up in green, not at all in red, and goes away the more black I throw into the color. All CMYK, not spot.
 

azehnali

Well-known member
why dont you run the transfer voltage adjustment
looks like the issue is a transfer problem
is the envelope the only paper you have the issue with
print the same file on color copy paper and see how the quality is
 

TJPrinter

Well-known member
This is a bit odd because it appears on just the left side of the image. I would setup a custom paper as #10 envelope and then use the manual adjustment for the image transfer. You'll have to use the manual adjustment because you can't print out a sample on a envelope. You can use either the number adjustment or the percentage adjustment. I would increase the percentage then print the file and then decrease the percentage and print the file to see which one gives you a better solid. Make the adjustments in increments so you know if you're getting closer to a good image. If that doesn't work you could try the primary current adjustment (last page of options) for the individual cmyk values.

Best not to mess with a custom stock that is already setup and giving you good results, that's why I would just setup a custom stock for the envelope. That way once you figure out what works best you can use the custom setting whenever you run envelopes.
 

ReproElectroProspero

Well-known member
So some further testing has revealed this is absolutely a physical issue. A full color print reveals this issue presents itself where the flaps on the envelope are. You can clearly see the side seam and flap in this image:


@azehnali - thanks for the tip. Do you think you could point me in the right direction of a help doc? I found one today that me create a custom stock profile, wherein I could program image transfer adjustments from auto/swatches/percent...it wouldn't let me do the swatch thing because of the nonstandard size, so I tried a ton of different percentages and nothing helped. I also found in that custom stock window a way to mess with each individual CMYK drum's transfer voltages, and none of my tests with those adjustments helped either.

Given where I am now - do you guys this I'm SOL getting these envelopes to print right? I'm feeling quite defeated lol
 

DYP

Well-known member
So some further testing has revealed this is absolutely a physical issue. A full color print reveals this issue presents itself where the flaps on the envelope are. You can clearly see the side seam and flap in this image:


@azehnali - thanks for the tip. Do you think you could point me in the right direction of a help doc? I found one today that me create a custom stock profile, wherein I could program image transfer adjustments from auto/swatches/percent...it wouldn't let me do the swatch thing because of the nonstandard size, so I tried a ton of different percentages and nothing helped. I also found in that custom stock window a way to mess with each individual CMYK drum's transfer voltages, and none of my tests with those adjustments helped either.

Given where I am now - do you guys this I'm SOL getting these envelopes to print right? I'm feeling quite defeated lol
It takes more static to pull the toner down from the belt in that area where the flap is. Increase the transfer voltage.
 

ReproElectroProspero

Well-known member
It takes more static to pull the toner down from the belt in that area where the flap is. Increase the transfer voltage.
Thanks for the tip. Do you know how to do that?

I tried "Adjust Image Transfer" in the custom stock profile creation menu, tried 110%, 130%, 150%, 300%, all were varying degrees of the same or worse.

I tried googling guides to "increase versant transfer voltage" and I'm not finding anything easily. Appreciate it!
 

ID13

Active member
That's the right place to change it. I usually use the tab where it says select sample number because it seems simpler to me with only 15 values. It won't let you print a sample but you can still set the number. If a positive number doesn't work trying negative one sometimes does (on 80# cover linen I have -2 set right now). It looks like for my envelope setting I have it set at uncoated 300-350 gsm and 0 on the transfer setting but I do have to adjust at different times of the year.
 

ReproElectroProspero

Well-known member
Arrrgh. Followed your advice and went into the custom stock profile I made for envelopes. Tried every single one of the 15 possible values. +2/3 made it a little better but no improvement from there. Tried a ton of different stock base profiles, uncoated 300-350gsm seemed to be the best. tried playing around with fuser temp, fuser speed, no change. I'm at a loss.
 

ReproElectroProspero

Well-known member
Thanks for the link Azehnali! This is what ID13 and DYP suggested. I've done most of this. The part in the video where they have you print and scan the squares doesn't work though - because it requires a standard paper size like Letter/Ledger. It won't let you print/scan the samples on something envelope size, and obviously printing the squares on paper I'm not having this issue with won't be helpful. Instead they were advising me on how to make the adjustments manually without the automatic scan part. I tried every single one and nothing makes that print quality issue go away :(
 

TJPrinter

Well-known member
The attached pdf was printed on a V280 and scanned from the glass with the same cmyk values that you listed. I wouldn't expect to get anything much better than this with full coverage like this. But it does show you that you should be able to get a much better toner transfer than what you're getting. I print all my 24lb white wove envelopes set to uncoated 177-220 gsm and no other custom settings. Others are saying the same thing, that you need to try both higher and lower transfer voltages (image transfer setting) because it sure looks like a toner transfer issue.

My shop is at 42% humidity and I always have a humidifier running or the ac going, depending on the season. If all this has failed, you may want to get your tech back in and check the life on your 2nd btr unit. My 2nd btr unit is never near the end of life when it's replaced because I run a lot of coated stock and they need to be replaced far to frequently on all the Versants.

I don't think you should give up on this job, it's not something that the v180 can't do correctly. Good luck!
 

Attachments

  • #10 c100,m90,y0,k10.pdf
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ReproElectroProspero

Well-known member
Did you try lowering the transfer voltage? 95%, 90%?
In dry conditions we usually had to lower it.
I did, I tried every single combination of settings I could in the Adjust Image Transfer setting for the custom stock profile I created while troubleshooting this. Though I didn't lower it via percentage, only with the swatch options that were mentioned earlier. I will try. 90 and 95% here shortly. We do run a little dry - though I bought an industrial humidifier so I can keep the shop at 35% or so humidity relatively easier.

The attached pdf was printed on a V280 and scanned from the glass with the same cmyk values that you listed. I wouldn't expect to get anything much better than this with full coverage like this. But it does show you that you should be able to get a much better toner transfer than what you're getting. I print all my 24lb white wove envelopes set to uncoated 177-220 gsm and no other custom settings. Others are saying the same thing, that you need to try both higher and lower transfer voltages (image transfer setting) because it sure looks like a toner transfer issue.

My shop is at 42% humidity and I always have a humidifier running or the ac going, depending on the season. If all this has failed, you may want to get your tech back in and check the life on your 2nd btr unit. My 2nd btr unit is never near the end of life when it's replaced because I run a lot of coated stock and they need to be replaced far to frequently on all the Versants.

I don't think you should give up on this job, it's not something that the v180 can't do correctly. Good luck!
I think that this may be the real cause. I would KILL for the output you attached. I just wanted to make sure I do EVERYTHING I can to troubleshoot this so they can't point to something else as they have been doing.
 

DYP

Well-known member
I did, I tried every single combination of settings I could in the Adjust Image Transfer setting for the custom stock profile I created while troubleshooting this. Though I didn't lower it via percentage, only with the swatch options that were mentioned earlier. I will try. 90 and 95% here shortly. We do run a little dry - though I bought an industrial humidifier so I can keep the shop at 35% or so humidity relatively easier.


I think that this may be the real cause. I would KILL for the output you attached. I just wanted to make sure I do EVERYTHING I can to troubleshoot this so they can't point to something else as they have been doing.
I apologize if I missed it but did you replace the 2ndBTR? Or did you have this problem right after the 2ndBTR was replaced in the past?
 

ReproElectroProspero

Well-known member
I apologize if I missed it but did you replace the 2ndBTR? Or did you have this problem right after the 2ndBTR was replaced in the past?
I don't think the 2ndBTR was replaced. Every time we've called the tech in they've blamed humidity or stock or drums. Is the 2ndBTR tough or expensive to replace or something?
 

DYP

Well-known member
Depending on how normal sheets print might be the determining factor for replacing the 2ndBTR. What about other envelopes, how do they print?
 

TJPrinter

Well-known member
I don't think the 2ndBTR was replaced. Every time we've called the tech in they've blamed humidity or stock or drums. Is the 2ndBTR tough or expensive to replace or something?
It's about a 5 minute replacement for the tech. They should have a log of when it was replaced last. If you had to buy one yourself it's about $500, so not cheap.

Looking at the 2nd BTR was a suggestion because it sounds to me like you have done everything that the tech said was causing the problems.
Changed or switched drums
Tried different envelopes/stock
Increased your shops humidity (bought humidifier)
Tried different image transfer settings

As users we have a fare amount of options to try for when we have problems but there will always be times when it's beyond our control and up to a good tech to do what we pay them for every time a piece of paper goes through the press. The v180 will do an excellent job printing envelopes and Xerox even sells a dedicated feeder and conveyor for envelopes. Sounds like you'll need to push your tech a bit to figure out why you're having this problem.
 

ReproElectroProspero

Well-known member
Depending on how normal sheets print might be the determining factor for replacing the 2ndBTR. What about other envelopes, how do they print?
We have a few kinds of envelopes on the shelf but they all seem to have this problem. I'm thinking about buying some 60# envelopes to test - but that will basically double my envelope cost from the 24# standard...which should work fine, right?
 

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