Which Digital Press to go with

[MrTonka]

Well I've not worked in the press industry for the past however many years but I work at a non-profit as the Director of Information Technology and we are now at a juncture (losing our pressman) to outsource everything or invest in a digital press.

I've read all the threads I care to on the comparisons of the KM6500, Canon 6000, Xerox 8000 don't remember the others and to be quit honest with all the conflicting details it is hard to decide which one would be the best all around choice.

We currently and for the foreseeable future won't exceed 25,000 pieces a month, while I know that is not a high amount reliability and quality is important to us. So I would not want to lean towards a machine that is good enough but one that could produce that amount without batting an eye.

We have not looked at the KM 6500. We have been looking at the Canon 6000VP & 7000VP, we briefly looked at the Indigo but the cost was too high. We are also looking into the Ricoh Pro C900. The samples we have looked at from the Canon the quality was excellent but the threads on the jams and QOS makes me nervious.

So with that said, I'm asking for input on the best method to assist in discerning which press would be best for us.

Thnx in advance for your help.

 

[UncleSam]

Xerox 700 is way to go

Xerox 700 is way to go

Check out the Xerox 700. 2400 dpi x 2400 dpi quality. With the Big Fiery RIP or Creo RIP, you can start to sell your print out immediately. Xerox support is very fast too. Usually same day services. After you saw the print out for Xerox 700, you won't like anything else. If you want to compare with Canon or others, ask them to print a sample for you using the file you provided to them with the same 28 lb regular paper, you will see the differences between different brand.

 

[Craig]

I can't believe I am going to say this, I gotta take a deep breath....... I would get a KM 6500, there, I said it .

Really though, with a volume as low as 25k the KM 6500 would be more than enough machine, and their inexpensive. The Canon 6000/7000VP and Xerox 8000AP are WAY too much machine, and don't even think of an Indigo, the bigger the machine, the more it likes to run. Plus the fact that your lease payments will make your cost per copy way to high with such a low volume.

As for which press is the best you need to ask yourself a few questions. What kinds of substrates will you be running, coated/uncoated, paper/cover? What finishing options do you need? How much skill does the operator have/need? What if any electrical requirements are needed? Who has the best support options?

Whichever one you go with get EVERYTHING in writing. If the salesman tells you it will do the dishes..... get it in writing or your screwed when it doesn't do it.

 

[random]

This probably isn't enough volume for a c6500 either im afraid. Machines we have around this volume are tempremental pains in the arse. I suggest you get a xerox 260 or 252.

 

[lfelton]

At that volume you need to seriously think about subcontracting. The sums just do not add up for retaining it in-house.

If you are determined to keep it in house then I think your question was about an evaluation methodology. I'm beginning to think that there is a business opportunity offering PSPs an evaluation & contract negotiation service! My 2c worth is that your evaluation is in 3 parts:-

(1) Technical. You know the jobs you run, make a list of what is required. A couple of points to get you started: FTB registration, duplexing capability (coated stock, stock weights, speeds), colour fidelity (including the vendor's training competence), print quality (gradients, tints, registration accuracy, gloss level of printed areas, etc.), maintenance (guaranteed maximum call out time, parts life cycle/spares holding/training), stock (paper) capability (weights, speeds, coated/uncoated, digital/litho).
(2) QOS - "no lemon" guarantee (these are called different things by different vendors), supported duty / life cycle, etc.
(3) Contractual - make sure that you have a copy of the proposed contract ahead of time and review it very thoroughly. You may find this part gives you a few surprises.

That's a far from complete list, but I hope it's of some help. As Craig said, make sure you get everything in writing.

 

[MIBUK]

The C900 is designed for an average volume of 170,000 pages per month (Duty 400,000). It's a very good machine, but the costs would be prohibitive for 25,000 per month. So, as someone mentioned earlier, I would look at outsourcing the work, where they will have all the nice technology to give you what you want with all of the expertise necessary to fix any issues.

If you're interested in Ricoh, consider the MP C6000 with an EFI controller (E-7100). Its average volume is 30,000k per month (Duty 300,000) and comes with a number of useful EFI colour tools and some basic VDP printing options. Oh, forgot to say it does not support SRA3.

I know of a press shop that uses the Konica Minolta 6500 and they're very happy with the output, but the registration is not accurate ie. they print duplexed business cards, but when the turn the paper over, the back side of the business card is out by 2mm. So, if that is important to you, then you may want to look elsewhere.

 

[Dave at clg]

One thing you need to remember about the Konica is that if you are running heavier stocks, the machine will slow down!! I would definitely not look at Canon/Xerox 7000. Scale down to the smaller Xerox

 

[X33]

A Xerox DocuColor 242/252/260 can handle that volume easily ... a Xerox 700 is also a good option, especially if you are expecting to grow in the next couple of years

Digital Printing: Production Printers, Digital Printing Press Models, Large Format Printers

 

[MrTonka]

I can't believe I am going to say this, I gotta take a deep breath....... I would get a KM 6500, there, I said it .

Wow I'm shocked you typed those words after everything I've read.

Thank you for all the replies and all the threads it certainly has educated me in dealing with the salesman.

I'm now thinking my target monthly clicks will grow to be approximately 50k a month in short order due to expansion and one of the driving factors between outsourcing everything and leasing a digital press is if the cost comes close to a wash in what we are spending now then we would rather have the print on demand control in house.

Our pressman will be retiring as well as our old Ab Dick offset press. In dealing with a lot of copiers and printers I understand Craig's comments concerning the plastic parts. The FTB registration is important and one of the things we liked about the Canon 6k or 7k is the stainless steel guides for registration, at least we were told they were, but we have not looked in one yet. They also claim the 6k produces 60ppm duplexed.

I do want to thank everyone for all the threads for it is informative and enteraining at the same time.

 

[random]

In dealing with a lot of copiers and printers I understand Craig's comments concerning the plastic parts. The FTB registration is important and one of the things we liked about the Canon 6k or 7k is the stainless steel guides for registration, at least we were told they were, but we have not looked in one yet. They also claim the 6k produces 60ppm duplexed.

I do want to thank everyone for all the threads for it is informative and enteraining at the same time.

Do I need to take a photo of the inside of a c6500? You can count the plastic parts on one hand! As far as I know our registration is the only machiine ISO accredited. Thats International standard Criag not Konica standard.

 

[MrTonka]

Do I need to take a photo of the inside of a c6500? You can count the plastic parts on one hand! As far as I know our registration is the only machiine ISO accredited. Thats International standard Criag not Konica standard.

I have not opened either machine to compare construction yet, I was merely commenting on my experience with other machines that happen to use inferior parts. I will see it first hand soon.

 

[random]

That was for Craigs Benefit Tonka

 

[Whygen]

We have just bought a KM 6501 with creo 304+ rip - and just about to get another.
pros:
Quality (better than our Igen)/ Cost entry point/ cost per click (lower than Xerox)/ auto mono detector - detects a mono click in a multi page colour/mono pdf and charges accordingly/ Can get 4 or 5 for the price of an Igen - contingency/very flat image similar to litho output/ laminates easily/no banding when maintained correctly

Cons:
Lot of paper jams initially - could be down to enviroment - runs alot better in controlled environment.
need tray heaters to run litho stocks (sales guys wont tell you this).
You have to work and turn anything above 300gsm
Slows down to approx 8ppm SRA3 D/S on heavier stock...
call out time 4 hours.....

We tested the Canon 6000/7000 range - think they will be really good machines in about 12 months but have relaibility issues at present + engineers short on the ground / dont seem that interested to sell you a machine -we waited 2 months to get samples back....


Would never touch Xerox - they are giants who in our experience cant be arsed with smaller developing companies and sales guys are full of shit (our experience)

You obviously have to do your figures - 25k a month is quite low but if there is high margin in the work you are doing then it could work - would advise in getting 2 machines as soon as possible for contingency - digital presses arent as reliable as litho presses - they will break down regularly....(irrespective of which one you buy)

good luck

 

[Whitaker]

need tray heaters to run litho stocks (sales guys wont tell you this).

What are tray heaters?

Also, we are considering the C6501 and we where told that service is from a third party company, Danka. Doesn't KM have a service department? Anyone have any experience with Danka?

Thanks

 

[Zubaz]

KM 5500/6500/6501e all the way

KM 5500/6500/6501e all the way

The tray heaters are designed to condition the paper to be more readily acceptable to the device. Temperature/humidity control is vital in most print organizations. In regard to Danka and KM Branchs they are pushing boxes in my opinion and aren't as responsive when it comes to service calls.

Acquire the KM 5500/6500 from a local vendor with private label financing and a performance guarantee in the lease and who is also a pro-tech service award winner with response times under 4 hours the KM 5500/6500/6501e's works excellent and is the best value in the industry. The Ricoh 900 and the Xerox 242/252/262 are well respected for their quality but are predominately plastic devices and are better fit for office applications with multiple users. As opposed to the KM 5500/6500/6501e which are built on a rigid steel frame. Grab and pull the trays out for yourself, pull the engine out and you'll see a lot of metal, you'll feel the difference. The KM's are not built like the $100,000+ big boys but their bang for the buck is no question a great option and at your volume (35-60,000) the KM will do great things and even better with the right vendor standing behind it.

hope that helps

 

[Craig]

Slows down to approx 8ppm SRA3 D/S on heavier stock...

Holy crap that's slow, especially for a "Production" machine. Again this just reinforces my point about the 6500, if you are running 28lb text it's fine... get a few, but if you are like me and run a lot of 270gsm gloss cover you better re-think.

For example a job I just ran was 8,400 12 x 18 sheets 270 gsm duplexed, it was a 7 hour run. (duplexing at 1200 sph) If I had a 6500 it would have taken 35 hours to run based on Whygen's 8ppm simplex speed, plus I would have to work and turn(more labor). That means I would have needed 5 KM6500's to complete the job in the same time, where's the advantage in that? Plus this job had variable data on both sides which would have been a pain to make sure "John Smith" on the front was "John Smith" on the back, and what about a jam!!!

 

[lfelton]

Holy crap that's slow, especially for a "Production" machine. Again this just reinforces my point about the 6500, if you are running 28lb text it's fine... get a few, but if you are like me and run a lot of 270gsm gloss cover you better re-think.

For example a job I just ran was 8,400 12 x 18 sheets 270 gsm duplexed, it was a 7 hour run. (duplexing at 1200 sph) If I had a 6500 it would have taken 35 hours to run based on Whygen's 8ppm simplex speed, plus I would have to work and turn(more labor). That means I would have needed 5 KM6500's to complete the job in the same time, where's the advantage in that? Plus this job had variable data on both sides which would have been a pain to make sure "John Smith" on the front was "John Smith" on the back, and what about a jam!!!

I'm fairly sure that Whygen means 8ppm duplexed, at least that's the very low end of what we're getting on the same type of machine. It's still not as fast as an 8000AP, especially on heavy stocks, but then we knew that anyway didn't we?

Incidently, I'm interested to see that you are pushing through 270gsm duplexed. The spec sheet for the 8000AP says that it will duplex up to 220gsm, so are you telling the 8000 that it's lighter stock, or is there a Xerox supported option now for duplexing heavier weight? What's the maximum Xerox supported weight for duplexing now?

 

[Josh]

I believe it's now 300gsm for the AP devices.

 

[Craig]

Josh is correct it will fully support duplexing up to 300gsm. The newest CED has a custom paper set-up that will allow you to do this. We have actually duplexed 120lb cover (326gsm) without a problem (don't tell Xerox).

 

[staylo02]

Mr Tonka, I think the sum up of this whole thread is that you really require quality while trying to avoid a huge production printing bill. I work for Ricoh, and your situation would fit the MP C7500 perfectly. I say a guy earlier before your output figures changed recommended the C6000, well the C7500 is built on the same line. I use this machine all the time at our local office, and I have them in 3 local pay for print shops. They have proved very reliable, and durable. If you have time, I would call your local rep to see if you can get a demo.