Wrinkle/ delamination of paper surface - offset printing

[thaiha]

Dear all,

I need from all of your advice regarding issue "wringke/ delamination" on the top of paper surface. Pls refer attached pictures.
If you already facing with this problem, can you share information as: root cause and corrective action.
Thanks all of you.

 

[Cornishpastythighs]

Whenever we have encountered this problem we have tried the following
1. Reduce ink tacks
2. Reduce impression squeezes.
3. Used blankets with better release (you will have to trial different blankets)
I'm sure others have remedies also.
Good luck

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Problems with Paper !


Paper problems during the print run............ its not rocket science !!!! Step 1 - Run a 100 sheets from a different paper manufacturer and see if the problem - stays/goes ????

Regards, Alois

 

[keith1]

Could be excessive humidity - or crappy paper.

 

[turbotom1052]

Could be excessive humidity - or crappy paper.

no doubt crappy paper, but thats about the norm these days in many places. As mentioned lower tack inks, less pressure. `The quicker release of the blanket can be done on selective units. You can even improve blanket release in specific areas of the blanket by wiping the corresponding areas with a press rag soaked in blanket hardener, AKA banana oil. Just be sure to remove the blanket hardener after you,r done with the job.

 

[aqazi81]

no doubt crappy paper, but thats about the norm these days in many places. As mentioned lower tack inks, less pressure. `The quicker release of the blanket can be done on selective units. You can even improve blanket release in specific areas of the blanket by wiping the corresponding areas with a press rag soaked in blanket hardener, AKA banana oil. Just be sure to remove the blanket hardener after you,r done with the job.

Is it the same banana oil that we use in cooking?

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Gentlemen,


I don't believe this - !

We buy at considerable expense precision made Blankets and advice is given for the use of "Witch Doctor's Remedies"


Regards, Alois

 

[turbotom1052]

Gentlemen,


I don't believe this - !

We buy at considerable expense precision made Blankets and advice is given for the use of "Witch Doctor's Remedies"


Regards, Alois

Alois,
I find it a little hard to believe in light of your chosen name on this forum, that you would trash an old school remedy that has proven itself effective in achieving a quicker release from a blanket. Perhaps your vast experience in pressroom operations missed out on that lesson. Not to worry.... even an old pro like you could learn a thing or three here if you open your mind a bit. Now if you'd tried the blanket hardener fix, and found it to be ineffective, then perhaps you could have reported it as such. My guess is that you were out the day that lesson was taught.
Aquazi.... I don't know that banana oil from the kitchen would do the job. The product I've used in the past was a commercially available pressroom product from a company called Rycoline. Im pretty certain its not a food grade product as it has a very strong VOC content.

 

[junker1984]

In the words of Larry the Cable Guy..."I don't care who you are, that's funny right there". You go, Turbo!

 

[D Ink Man]

H2O is involved, whether in the atmosphere or in the printing process.

D

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Before we go Bananas !


turbotom,

I'm disappointed that you have given poor advice, you being an experienced and knowledgeable printer,

who having posted many interesting and valid answers to the many problems sent into this forum.

My self coming from a Sheet-fed and Web Offset Printing background, I don't subscribe to ---

the "Witch Doctor's Box of Remedies" There is only --- Shore Hardness of the Blanket, not

swabbing the blanket with very high VOCs solvents.


Regards, Alois

 

[Alois Senefelder]

junker1984,

My friend, I'm disappointed that you use a quote from a 3rd rate Comedian ! - you should be more discerning


" Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence"


Regards, Alois

 

[junker1984]

Alois!!! Third rate? One of the greatest comedians of our time? I mean really...he rates right up there with Sacha Baron Cohen, Andy Kaufman and Al Franken. Guess I should have found a quote from Graham Chapman or Terry Jones .

 

[turbotom1052]

Before we go Bananas !


turbotom,

I'm disappointed that you have given poor advice, you being an experienced and knowledgeable printer,

who having posted many interesting and valid answers to the many problems sent into this forum.

My self coming from a Sheet-fed and Web Offset Printing background, I don't subscribe to ---

the "Witch Doctor's Box of Remedies" There is only --- Shore Hardness of the Blanket, not

swabbing the blanket with very high VOCs solvents.


Regards, Alois

Alois,
What you refer to as a witch doctor remedy has proven itself to me countless times. Now I suppose that if we were still operating in the days, where all the time in the world was given to getting a job to run at its very best, then the needed time spent to swap out a blanket would be time well spent. However.... most companies these days want if FAST. Taking a pressrag soaked in solvent and swabbing it on the problem areas is much quicker than removing, remounting, and repacking a blanket. Not to mention it also negates the need to inventory sets of harder blankets. After its intended purpose is done then just whip out the ole blanket hardener remover and then your back to your pre treated blanket condition.
Upon reviewing some of your earlier postings, on other threads, I found one post in particular, directed to a forum member that advocated keeping old school printing techniques alive. You went as far as to encourage him to pass them on. Now I could pull up that post, and repost it for all to see, just to embarrass you, but there is really no need as I have a feeling you will be doing that on your own very soon.

 

[turbotom1052]

Im gonna go out on a limb here thaiha and guess, based on the pics you attached, that the problem your having is for the most part BEGINING on startup with clean blankets. In an attempt to avoid reducing the inks whenever possible, you may want to try starting up with reduced tack. To do this I would suggest giving your problem printing units light spraying of anti skin spray. Follow that up with a very light spraying of the problematic blankets. In the case of the images you posted I would say the cyan. Allow the sprayed rollers to run a bit to distribute the anti skin spray. When you start up the press after doing this, be prepared to waste a good 25 to 50 sheets on startup. The theory being, that if you can get the press to BEGIN the run, without the delaminating of the papers top layer, it will continue on through the run. Once the press starts running the ink tacks will find their proper level and the problem will hopefully resolve itself. The only problem with this suggestion, besides the obvious need for more paper, would be that if the surface of the sheet is so weakly bonded, that there is the possibility that even if you can print it without defect, there is the chance that the same sort of issues may rear their ugly head in finishing.
Im crossing my fingers and hoping that this suggestion meets Mr. Senefelders approval because I couldn't bear having my pee pee stepped on again.

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Hello turbotom1052,


Well I'm glad you've only found one !!!!!!


"Most things in life are moments of pleasure and a lifetime of embarrassment"


Regards, Alois

 

[Cornishpastythighs]

Not sure if the original poster is printing food packaging but as a food packaging printer there is no way on earth we can use these solvents on or near our presses. We are a certified low migration carton printer and as such cannot use any Rubber Rejuvinators, Blanket fixes or any other solvents that have not been tested for migration. We have to invest the time and effect into solving the problems without the use of fixes.
As food packaging regulations regarding migration of inks, fountain solutions etc onto the inside of cartons continue to get tougher we find there are sadly very few old school methods that are available to us.

 

[turbotom1052]

In my opinion, the OP would best be served trying to find a more suitable stock. Quick fixes (and there are many) work fine as short term solutions, but it isn't something you want to have to do every time this problem shows up. Find a better stock and stick with it, knowing that you can count on it without any worries.

this goes without saying when possible, but there does come times where you have to make due with what you've got. This is especially true these days when the temptation to increase profits by buying crap paper is more prevalent than ever before. It still amazes me how some printers who like to consider themselves quality printers will roll the dice by purchasing mill seconds or mill rejects.

 

[turbotom1052]

Hello turbotom1052,


Well I'm glad you've only found one !!!!!!


"Most things in life are moments of pleasure and a lifetime of embarrassment"


Regards, Alois

Alois I only found when because I didn't bother to look past the first page. The one that I did find made the point I was looking to make.

 

[aqazi81]

Another old school eco friendly solution, if this is happening during makeready, just apply a small amount of coconut oil or cooking oil to the inked up rollers and carry on with makeready.
I remember one of our senior pressman used to mix general purpose grease in ink to eliminate hickeys.