Xerox 700 vs. KM 6501 vs. USED 6500

[Brett S]

We just purchased a quick printing company 2 months ago and the first major change is upgrading our CPP 500
I am looking for a bit of digital color advice, here are the three machine choices:

NEW Xerox 700- internal rip or external Firery/Creo- base machine, no extras
NEW KM 6501- same choices on the rip- base machine, no extras
USED 6500- basically the same rip choices if I am patient- saddle-sticher and high capacity paper unit.

The print samples that we have seen off of the 700 and the 6501 look pretty close on quality. The lease cost for the 700 is a good bit more, but click cost is about $.01 less than the 6501.
The used 6500 has about 200K clicks but comes with all the extras. Not sure how important the high capacity paper trays are to the production (my guess is important) quality.

Thoughts? advice?

 

[Craig]

My opinion.... go new, get the newest technology, get everything on it you can afford.

 

[UberTech]

Don't buy either without a high capacity feeder. The bypass tray should be exactly that.

 

[GM PRINTER]

I agree, we have 2-6500 machines in our shop and you won't make it without the high cap. paper trays. Especially if your running cover stock. The KM6500's are great machines, expecially for the price.

 

[Brett S]

Ok, got it new and get the high capacity. Both machines are available with a single tray and a double tray high capacity feeder- any big difference on performance between the two? And any thoughts on the RIPs? Right now the CPP 500 we have runs on an external Ikon Creo RIP. Creo seems to add quite a bit to the package so we may be leaning towards a Fiery RIP, should we go external or the integrated RIP? My gut says external so it runs on its own computer.

 

[GM PRINTER]

External rip is the only way to go as far as I can tell. We are running Creo's on both our 6500's. They are great rips, you will never go back to Fiery after using them. They are great for VDP (variable) jobs and color managment. I would get the double decker paper trays. Once you have them you will just about never use the bottom 3-trays again.
FYI- after having the machine for about 500,000 clicks you will start to see more and more problems with skew and with being able to print heavy solids without banding. Stay on their butts about these issues.
-For the banding on heavy coverage areas, they have a fix for.
-For the registration issues with cover stock, GOOD LUCK! We have yet to see a cure.

 

[Brett S]

Ok since you have the 6500s, and I know I have been told new, would you go with the used 6500 with some bells and whistles (FS607 saddle-stitcher, LU202 one tray-plus I can add a creo rip for about 5K vs. one of the new options where they are about 15K extra) OR get one of the new machines I mentioned.
I am a bit concerned about registration, is it only on cover stock? And have you heard the 700 is that much better?

 

[GM PRINTER]

I have heard that the 700 is a better machine as far as registration and speed is concerned. The 700 does not slow down until 100# CVR as the 6500 starts slowing down right off the bat. I do like the color better off the 6500 vs the 700. I would go with the machine with all the bells and whistles to get the most bang for your buck. Just to be curious though, roughly what percentage of your work is on 100#CVR?

 

[Brett S]

It depends on the month, but it looks like: #1- 80# Cougar cover/ #2- 100# Sterling Ultra Gloss cover/#3- Hammermill Laser Text/#4- random 80 or 100# Gloss Text.

 

[GM PRINTER]

Looks similar to what we run. If your looking for a company to grow with Xerox is def it. If your looking to get out as cheap as possible and still get by the KM will work fine but the Xerox will undoubtably be the company to grow with if your looking to expand your printing later. Were looking at Canon and Xerox right now ourselves.

 

[Londen]

Which models?

Which models?

Hi GM Printer,
Which models of Canon and Xerox are you comparing?

Looks similar to what we run. If your looking for a company to grow with Xerox is def it. If your looking to get out as cheap as possible and still get by the KM will work fine but the Xerox will undoubtably be the company to grow with if your looking to expand your printing later. Were looking at Canon and Xerox right now ourselves.

 

[Brett S]

Two concerns with Xerox- cost and some history. The company I used to work for had xerox- they went after one of our big customers, sold them an in-plant shop AND took one of our employees. They have some history of doing this, of course they say it was done by another division... still the same company. That being said I like there service techs, very good reps in the area, and some of the support programs. The cost difference is huge, it would be a huge jump from where are today- and the other machines.

 

[GM PRINTER]

Hi GM Printer,
Which models of Canon and Xerox are you comparing?

Were currently looking at the 7000VP from Canon and 7002/8002 series from Xerox. We were very impressed with the IGen just not the pricing.

 

[X33]

We were very impressed with the IGen just not the pricing.

Nobody likes the price of any machine. What about the Return On the Investment?

That is what you should look at. If you don't see a good ROI for your business based on your current and future market, clients, applications, etc ... that's different.

 

[lfelton]

Nobody likes the price of any machine. What about the Return On the Investment?

That is what you should look at. If you don't see a good ROI for your business based on your current and future market, clients, applications, etc ... that's different.

X33 is right, ROI is important, purchase price is pretty irrelevant except as it applies to the ROI equation. The trouble for Xerox is that a base price of $600,000 (for an entry level iGen4 in the UK) means that you need a hell of a lot of return before you start to pay for that investment. I see a lot of iGens in banks, where the inplant is a cost centre (and the rapid write down period helps with tax deductables) , but less so out in commercial printers where they have to generate profits. I'm not knocking the iGen4, it's a good machine, I'm just not sure it could generate more profit than (say) 3x 7002s.

 

[X33]

I've seen business cases where an iGen printing only 100,000 prints a month can turn profits.

I think the key is how valuable are the applications you print.

By now, most people should be able to understand that printing VDP applications (i.e. photo books, transpromo, cross marketing campaigns, etc) is 2,5,10 times more profitable than static applications (i.e. business cards); therefore you can make more profits with less volume.