Xerox 800 vs KM C8000 vs Canon C7010VP

[wmwilker]

We are in the process of buying one of these. Our volume is 130k + monthly and can peak to almost double that. The Canon is the cheapest with KM then Xerox.
Cost is a factor but reliability is as important.
We are currently have a Xerox 7000 with a Creo RIP and for the most part are happy. It does have it's issues but we mostly print training manuals in which color is not terribly important.

I would love some feedback from those who are familiar with these machines. I would love some recommendations.

Thank you

Mike

 

[Printease]

wmwilker-

To be upfront, I work for a Xerox dealer, but was an operator for many years before that.

So, the info I am giving you is related to the 800.
We have number of these installed in the field out there, and they are very reliable.
At least one of these accounts that I am very involved with is running the types of volumes you are talking about. It handles it very easily, and the quality is amazing(speaking as a former operator). They do lots of full-color, full bleed books and sell sheets.

The one recommendation I would have would be to stay away from the FreeFlow rip. Personally, I would go with the Fiery if I had my choice.(Again, speaking as an operator).

Good luck in your decision!

 

[wmwilker]

Thanks for the reply

All will have Creo front ends.

I have been happy with Xerox in the past for the most part but we are looking at all angles.

 

[Printease]

I understand wanting to stay consistent with the rip choice. I have used Creos a lot on other machines in the past, and have been very happy with them as well!

 

[kilgore]

We have an Oce' 665 now and looking to upgrade for heavier weight capabilities and 1200x1200 ..
I too am looking at those machines as well as the Richo 901
I demo'ed an 8000 yesterday...and it went very bad.

I had set up an FTP for files for the demo a week in advance
I emailed the paper I was bringing
Carolina 14pt C2S 306 GSM
Carolina 15pt. C1S 280 GSM
Endurance 80# gloss cover

I drove 4 hrs for the demo..only to find out the rep was installing the fiery as we were walking in the door

he had to "force" 13x19 to the machine from the rip
there was no dehumidifier installed
drawer 4 had a "do not use" note inside..possibly missing a clutch
there was no humidifier installed

immediate 2 errors that my local tech, who went along with us, ended up downloading the documentation to fix.

the machine would not feed the 14pt. at all
they were able to get the 15pt. thru the machine..but i left never seeing a duplexed piece
the 80# fed fine..but color was poor...recalibrate a few times...still not up to color
scratches across all sheets, including 80#
toner not adhering

all of the above were my papers fault at one time or another..."feels thicker than 280 or 306 GSM"..except the scratches were attributed to a mylar piece not installed...after I pointed out the scratches on the 80# also

I explained that the GSM was their standard...not mine.
I pulled up the Mfg. web site showing the specs of the paper

"perhaps it was mis-marked" was said at one time

I left shortly after that

with all that being said..I assume that the bad demo was more of the reps fault than the machine.

It was not set up properly for a demo...and I have read some good things about the machine.

I am willing to look at this machine again, just not with that rep or at that office.

does anyone see an issue running either Carolina 14pt C2S 306 GSM...or Carolina 15pt. C1S 280 GSM on the KM8000?..or on any of the aforementioned machines?

I am demo'ing the Canon 7010 next week...I'll post what happens there

 

[MacDaddy]

Wow ruff demo. From the post I have read that does not sound common. Sounds like stock weight is high on list. KM 8000 and Xerox can do 350gsm. Canon does not go that heavy. I like the way KM 8000 has set up it's feeding system, belt suction feed like my duplo booklet maker. Next demo make sure they have a tech trained on new machine. My tech on my other KM just went to training last week. One week in Chicago he said it is a different beast they the other machines. By the way I run 12pt 12 x 18 all the time on my KM no problem have even done 14pt if the grain is right way. They have some nice videos at YouTube on the 8000 that show the features. God luck it all comes down to service and a good tech they all print nice. I just have a good tech for my KM.

 

[direxiondm]

One Bad Demo should tell you something about the dealer not the machine!!

We did a demo in the Netherlands on a c8000 and not all went well but im not willing to give up on a bad demo. If you base a purchade decission on one demo you should consider trying a full days labour on a machine only then can you say Bad or good machine

In my opinion there are no bad engines any more just bad organisations!

 

[apolloUVGOD]

UV Coating on 800

UV Coating on 800

I have developed a custom UV coating that works on the xerox 800. So coating it is no longer an issue.
Curtis / Al's co. UV

 

[rcreveli]

We ended up getting the Canon 6010. It's arriving in a few days. I posted our process and how we came to our decision in a previous thread. I'm reposting it below.


I am not a purchasing expert of any sort but, I feel over the last 15 years I've been involved in a lot of equipment purchases, digital, offset, bindery etc. I feel that we've developed a system that is easily adaptable to any one in the industry. Since this is the digital forum I'll use that as an example.

1. Wishlist/Criteria
If you are replacing a piece of equipment this will be easier than buying something completely new but now is the time to make and rate you list.
Here are a few of our criteria - we ended up with 17 for our new digital press
1. Improved Image quality - we defined this to mean closer to offset than our bizhub 6500 with improved grayscale and better spot color matching.
2. Must be able to run 13x19 out of 1 drawer
3. Duplex 300 GSM
4. Improved deskewing
5. better color controls

etc.

2.rate your critera
Assign them value from 1 down. In our case #1 was improvement in quality. #17 was inline finishing because of our offline capabilities. Also Inline finishing is quite expensive and Inline stitcher can easily go for between 20-40K US$. That's a nice upgrade to your offline/nearline capabilities.

3. Find Machines that fit into your criteria. Your top 5 criteria are going to help you eliminate machines very quickly. Our #2 Criteria of duplexing 300GSM with our #1 of improving image quality got us down to 3 machines from 5 vendors. 3 Vendors proposed to Bizhub 8000.

4. Test 1.
We gave each company the files with offset printed samples and a carton of paper. They were told to match there output as closely as possible to the offset. We specified which controller and then let them have at it.

5. Double Blind Review
I've been doing this for 15 years. I and everyone I work with have some bias regarding vendors. Maybe we didn't like a tech or had really great experience with a machine. I sought to eliminate this from the first round reviews.

I took all of the outputs and assigned them a number. I then gave key employees a questionnaire and asked them to review the outputs. These employees including the production manager, the designer, the digital key op and the owner.

The questionnaire had both objective and subjective questions for each of the 3 sample files ie.

Which output most closely matches offset

Which output looks the best.

I then tallied the results and we were down to two machines.

6. Stress Test.

I went to see the vendors and brought a carton of 100# coated cover and a test file that I built. This file was brutal It has multiple different skin tones, RGB B&W images. Both blacks and whites with fine details and solid swatches. I then printed the file head to tail to check that the entire image are was consistent.

I ran an entire carton at each site. I timed the job and pulled and marked regular samples for consistency.

7. Haggling.

Ask for the world.

Go back a re asses ask about component prices. We saved several thousand dollars by getting a finisher with a staple unit instead a just a stacker.

Remember that most of your bill is going to be clicks.


So that's the system we used for both our last major purchases. The interesting this about this system is that both times the winner was not whom we expected.

When we bought our last B&W generation we bought Xerox 4112's a machine we had no interest in

This time we decided on a Canon solution. This was even more surprising since both the owner and I haven't looked at Canon color since the CLC 1000/5000 generations we were so badly burned.


Sorry for the long post and I hope this helps some of you.

 

[kilgore]

As I had posted before....We have an Oce' 665 now and looking to upgrade for heavier weight capabilities and 1200x1200 ..

I posted my demo of the KM 8000 above

I demo'ed a Canon 7000 yesterday ( i was told by the previous salesman who was laid off last week it was to be a 7010)

Again I had set up an FTP for files for the demo a week in advance
I emailed the paper I was bringing
Carolina 14pt C2S 306 GSM
Carolina 15pt. C1S 280 GSM
Endurance 80# gloss cover

I drove 4 hrs for the demo at an end user facility

The initial machine overview went well with a very knowledgeable rep who informed my local rep of features he didn't know of (dual fusing on the 6010?? )

the machine did feed the 14pt. ..image was bad, streaked and didn't fuse well

the machine did feed the 15pt. .same problem , didn't fuse well , with streaks

as the simplex didn't work well... i left never seeing a duplexed piece

the 80# fed fine..but had a long scratch across the sheet..minor hickeys

at least this rep offered to run my paper at another site on a 7010 with a higher GSM threshold of 325

The end result from both the KM 8000 and the Canon 7000 were almost the same..but was handled much better by the Canon rep.

I understand that the 7010 may or may not run what I want to run..I guess I will find out.

Am I asking too much of these machines to run the 14 and 15 pt.?..I assumed the standard of GSM was put into place by the mfg. for a reason?

Again I ask if anyone sees an issue running specifically:
Carolina 14pt C2S 306 GSM
Carolina 15pt. C1S 280 GSM

on KM8000, Canon 6010/7010. or Richo 901 (which I have to demo yet)?

I can and do run 12 pt. now with a 256 GSM on my Oce' 665

 

[macdudeken]

printease: could you please explain why you would stay away from the freeflow RIP on a Xerox 800?

 

[Printease]

macdudeken:

If you take a look through the posts here, almost all of the people that have issues with the 800/1000s are people using the Freeflow server. The most telling thing is that the installs do not go smooth and can be very time consuming with this server because it is not as ironed-out and stable as the Fierys/Creos.

The Xerox 800/1000 are great machines that I see pounding out very high quality product on nearly daily basis on our customer locations. All of these are using Fiery/Creo rips. It's a shame that I see these machines getting blamed for certain issues on this board when, in many cases, it is just a poor RIP choice by the purchaser.

 

[kilgore]

Richo demo...

As I had posted before...

We have an Oce' 665 now and looking to upgrade for heavier weight capabilities and 1200x1200 ..

I posted my demo of the KM 8000, the Canon 7000 above

I just demo'ed the Rich 901

Again I had set up an FTP for files for the demo a week in advance
I emailed the paper I was bringing
Carolina 14pt C2S 306 GSM
Carolina 15pt. C1S 280 GSM
Endurance 80# gloss cover

the machine did feed the 14pt. ..image was bad, streaked and didn't fuse well

the machine did feed the 15pt. .same problem , didn't fuse well , with streaks

the 80# fed fine..no issues, with good color and good registration..actually, very good registration sheet to sheet and front to back.

the rep offered to run my heavy paper on another machine at a tech site..we were at an end user site, which is where I prefer to demo equipment.

The end result from the KM 8000,the Canon 7000 and now the Rich 901 were almost the same..

I have since received samples from a KM8000 and from the Canon 7010 on my heavy paper..which look fine..I expect the same thing to happen from Richo

I am waiting to re-demo the KM8000.....I am demo'ing the Canon 7010 next week...I'll post how it goes.

We have decided to look at the Xerox line now also..7002 or 8002..when I demo..I'll post how it goes.

 

[printer in heart]

I have developed a custom UV coating that works on the xerox 800. So coating it is no longer an issue.
Curtis / Al's co. UV

Hello, Do you use custom UV coating directly on your 800 model or do you use a separate UV coating machine unit. I have X1000 and I want to understand how do you do UV coating

Thanks

 

[apolloUVGOD]

Hello,
There is a video of a xerox color machine with inline UV on fire at Drupa. Stop the madness !!!

Offline or a roll up coater to delivery. Yes

First , Everyone's situations and expectations are different. I can put together what anyone may need without the "Sales" effect.

Call me and I will be happy to help but call me soon before this business drives me insane.

Curtis 909) 539-3701

 

[RKS]

Igen is the machine that can have an online UV coater, not the 800/1000

 

[printer in heart]

printease: could you please explain why you would stay away from the freeflow RIP on a Xerox 800?

Hello everyone, I've been using freeflow rip with 1000 for the past few past, since January and I don't see any problems. I had Fiery rip before with 5252 so I can judge what is better or not. Except 1 feature that Freeflow Rio doesn't have that Fiery had, I don't miss it at all. In case if anyone wants to know what is the feature. On Fiery if you change paper size from 11x17 or 8.5 x 11 to 12 x18 or whatever size, image was always in the middle. Unfortunately Freeflow rip puts image on the bottom left hand corner. Otherwise it works fine and I don't have any issues. I even happier with it then with Fiery as I was doing personalized job with 3 staple sheets and Freeflow rip had an option to indicate when to staple. Fiery didn't have this feature. When I had to shutdown printer and restarted again, Freeflow kept the sequence of personalized job. Integrity was never lost. I don't know why everyone complains. Perhaps I didn't experience their problems and hopefully I will never. For now I'm happy with Rip and 1000 unit

 

[InvisSoul]

I'd just like to put in my 2 cents on this. I've been running a KM C8000 for the past several months now. When I first started running it I was impressed with the quality or the printed material. However now we are approx 5 months with running the machine and we've placed more than a dozen service calls on the machine. We've had a tech here almost every week fixing some part of the machine or the Fiery server. Needless to say this has cause some major frustrations and extremely disappointed with the machines ability to run for 1 week with no problems. Maybe we got a lemon, who knows but this definitely leave a bad taste in our mouths about this machine.

 

[wmwilker]

We have decided to go with the Canon C7010VP mainly due to pricing. They gave us an extremely competitive price and a very low click charge. Due to our past experience with Canon we are only doing a 36 month lease.
We should have the machine installed by the end of May and I'll report back on the progress and my impressions of the machine.

This will end a 10 year relationship with Xerox color so this will be a new experience for us. Two years ago we sent our last Docutech back for an Oce 6150. I can't say that we've missed our Xerox B&W machine at all.

Thanks for all the feedback.

 

[ajr_oce]

Your experience

Your experience

Hi,

I have read the tread. I am working for Océ in the Netherlands and as you probably know we are now also selling imagePRESS. I am looking forward learning more about your experience using the machine... looking forward to your reply.

Thuur