Xerox 800 vs KM C8000 vs Canon C7010VP

[mariocanta]

We are in the process of buying one of these. Our volume is 130k + monthly and can peak to almost double that. The Canon is the cheapest with KM then Xerox.
Cost is a factor but reliability is as important.
We are currently have a Xerox 7000 with a Creo RIP and for the most part are happy. It does have it's issues but we mostly print training manuals in which color is not terribly important.

I would love some feedback from those who are familiar with these machines. I would love some recommendations.

Thank you

Mike

Mike I am Mario from Italy.
You print Trainig manuals, the some that I do.
I print training manuals for all the car company in Italy (Fiat, Nissan, Opel …)

I have 2 separate machine, one for color and one for Black and White

I don’t know if your manuals are all color or you have some pages in BW and Some pages in color?
My material is mix
I print color pages with canon 6000 (first release) and BW with KM 130

After print, I setup a solution with bar code and Duplo system 2000 that merge the color and BW pages together

I f your page are all color, be careful what kind of machine you will purchase!

Manuals does not need high quality, but if you plane to print also in quality, you need a printer that does both

I am not satisfy with my canon, I purchase 3 years ego, and every 2 days the technicians is in my company for service

For color, and steady printing I do not recommend canon (even if the quality is one of the best)

KM, the new 6000 and 7000 are ok for you, but if you wait 2 or 3 month, Ricoh is coming out with 2 new machine, similar at the 9000 graphic art model, but 75 pages for minute
The price will be very competitive.
Just today the Ricoh representative came in my office giving me this news

Sorry for my English

Mario

 

[wmwilker]

Hi,

I have read the tread. I am working for Océ in the Netherlands and as you probably know we are now also selling imagePRESS. I am looking forward learning more about your experience using the machine... looking forward to your reply.

Thuur

Thuur, just to let you know, we are very happy with the Oce 6150. It was installed in April of 2008 and has been very reliable and prints beautifully.
I look forward to the process and hope the Imagepress doesn't disappoint.

 

[wmwilker]

Mike I am Mario from Italy.
You print Trainig manuals, the some that I do.
I print training manuals for all the car company in Italy (Fiat, Nissan, Opel …)

I have 2 separate machine, one for color and one for Black and White

I don’t know if your manuals are all color or you have some pages in BW and Some pages in color?
My material is mix
I print color pages with canon 6000 (first release) and BW with KM 130

After print, I setup a solution with bar code and Duplo system 2000 that merge the color and BW pages together

I f your page are all color, be careful what kind of machine you will purchase!

Manuals does not need high quality, but if you plane to print also in quality, you need a printer that does both

I am not satisfy with my canon, I purchase 3 years ego, and every 2 days the technicians is in my company for service

For color, and steady printing I do not recommend canon (even if the quality is one of the best)

KM, the new 6000 and 7000 are ok for you, but if you wait 2 or 3 month, Ricoh is coming out with 2 new machine, similar at the 9000 graphic art model, but 75 pages for minute
The price will be very competitive.
Just today the Ricoh representative came in my office giving me this news

Sorry for my English

Mario

Mario, no need for apologies. Your post was easily understood.
In regards to the black and white and color issue most of our manuals have very little black only pages and the click charges for the black pages are low enough that we didn't think it was worth using a color splitter software. We tried it in the past with a DocuColor 2045 and a Docutech and more often than not it was more trouble than it was worth.

It's my understanding that the C7010 has been "beefed" up compared to the 6000 and is more reliable in a production setting. More will be revealed on that.
I will keep you all posted on our installation and progress as we are able to run the machine in production.

 

[kilgore]

Canon 7010 demo...

I posted my demo of the KM 8000, the Canon 7000 and the Rich 901

Walked into an end-user facility..they were running a simple 11X17 with spot color.
They were kind enough to stop their job and let me demo the machine for as long as I liked.

Rep didn't do anything other than load my paper and files..paper in the low cap drawer...and hit print.....from the second print on...image was very good....

ran both of my papers very well with no jams or any fusing issues

duplex was close right out of the drawer with little adjustment needed to the 306 GSM, C2S, 13x19

I was somewhat impressed with the "load and go" I saw this machine do ...especially after the previous demos

high capacity drawer feed fine with no issues.

knowledgeable rep...with a great attitude

Only issue I saw were some belt lines from the end user running same size paper for the last month..and past the PM

over all I was encouraged..especially after the horrible first round of demos

By going to the end user..I was able to ask the dept. manager about his experience with the 7010...he was very happy with the speed quality etc.

I asked about service,,..which I read here was an issue with Canon..he told me the 7000 were nightmares for service..he hasn't had many issues with the 7010

I am demo'ing the Xerox 8002 soon

I am waiting to reschedule the KM8000

I have heard nothing from Richo since the demo

 

[wmwilker]

Canon 7010 demo...

I posted my demo of the KM 8000, the Canon 7000 and the Rich 901

Walked into an end-user facility..they were running a simple 11X17 with spot color.
They were kind enough to stop their job and let me demo the machine for as long as I liked.

Rep didn't do anything other than load my paper and files..paper in the low cap drawer...and hit print.....from the second print on...image was very good....

ran both of my papers very well with no jams or any fusing issues

duplex was close right out of the drawer with little adjustment needed to the 306 GSM, C2S, 13x19

I was somewhat impressed with the "load and go" I saw this machine do ...especially after the previous demos

high capacity drawer feed fine with no issues.

knowledgeable rep...with a great attitude

Only issue I saw were some belt lines from the end user running same size paper for the last month..and past the PM

over all I was encouraged..especially after the horrible first round of demos

By going to the end user..I was able to ask the dept. manager about his experience with the 7010...he was very happy with the speed quality etc.

I asked about service,,..which I read here was an issue with Canon..he told me the 7000 were nightmares for service..he hasn't had many issues with the 7010

I am demo'ing the Xerox 8002 soon

I am waiting to reschedule the KM8000

I have heard nothing from Richo since the demo

That's reassuring to hear about the 7010. I hope it can handle our production when we have to run 2 shifts.

We currently have a DC 7000 and have close to 6 mil clicks on it now. Most clicks are 11x17 and it's been a good machine but we're trying to get away from the fuser oil tech mainly because of bindery and laminating problems.
They are great machines for moderately heavy production.

 

[TeeBee]

i read in an announcement in a graphic magazine

It will even get better with the Canon imagePRESS C7010VP!! Recently they announced the marriage of it with the Océ PRISMAsync color controller.

Of what i've seen the controller is integrated and you only have one screen to work on, instead of the printer user interface + RIP interface. The touchscreen handles the same as the oce 6150, even I can work with that.

 

[kilgore]

I was to demo the Xerox 8002 this week.

I had sent my paper:

Carolina 14pt C2S 306 GSM
Carolina 15pt. C1S 280 GSM
and files to the rep before hand

I received a call last week to let me know that the paper I sent was cut long grain...and they couldn't get it to feed at all..even for simplex.

I was asked to re-cut paper short grain and bring with me (3+ hour drive)
I declined

I was asked if I would like to see the 8002 run my files on other paper
I declined

I understand some issues with grain and turn radius for duplex, but felt that simplex should not be an issue..I guess I was wrong?

I have concerns right out of the gate if this machine is that touchy..especially after what i have seen other mfg. machines feed.

Not sure what to do next re: Xerox

I am re-demo'ing the KM 8000 in a couple weeks..I'll post how it goes

 

[Craig]

It should have been a given they would bitch about grain long sheets! I bet they didn't even attempt to try it, especially if it didn't say Xerox on the wrapper.

 

[RKS]

What was the click charge received on the Canon 7010vp if you don't mind sharing?

 

[wmwilker]

What was the click charge received on the Canon 7010vp if you don't mind sharing?

I won't be exact as it would not be ethical but around the $.04 range +/-

 

[kilgore]

re-demo of the KM 8000

I had posted my first demo of the KM 8000 in this thread earlier....it didn't go too well..I thought I had better re-demo as I had heard good things about this machine.

Paper I want to run:
Carolina 14pt C2S 306 GSM
Carolina 15pt. C1S 280 GSM

Files to the rep before hand

I was asked if I could provide short grained paper the day before the demo.
I declined, as the short grain will cause me trouble in my offline finishing.

Factory rep and sales person were well informed..walked me through machine and answered all questions.

Machine did pull the heavy paper...but had some issues with quality. It seemed to generally fuse OK, but had scratches across the image..and some "chatter" as I've heard it referred to.
Reps asked if I could leave paper for further testing.

This demo went way better than my first experience. I think this machine would perform well with lighter stock, but that is not what I am looking for. We run 12pt. now on our Oce' 665


Richo has informed me that their machine will not run the paper I want to use

I have declined to move forward with Xerox for the same paper issues.

We have decided to go with Canon.

Price was reasonable, and the Canon was the only machine able to "load and go" with our paper. We also have decided to go with the 6010 as we have capacity and speed is not our concern at this point.

I expect to have this in-house next month sometime..I'll post how it goes.

 

[wmwilker]

We are in the process of having the Canon C7010VP installed today.
The fusing unit came in damaged so it may be a few days before a new one is shipped.
I will keep you all posted on our progress.

 

[londonbob]

I have heard a lot about Xerox and other digital presses. The Xerox 8000 is an outstanding Color machine,further I would recommend buying it from Fuji. You will not find a more reliable,dependable and forthright company to deal with. Everything is aboveboard and on the table and you will get total support from Xerox service people. Your Fuji rep will make sure you have the right machine for your purpose. Remember Fujifilm builds these machines and knows as much or more about them as your Xerox sales people. As a Fuji retiree I speak from experience and knowledge as to their high integrity and concern for their customers. I did not mean for this to be a commercial but it is for the benefit of my friends in this business that I speak out on this matter.
Thanks

 

[OBH]

wmwilker,
How's it going with the new install?

 

[printer in heart]

re-demo of the KM 8000

I had posted my first demo of the KM 8000 in this thread earlier....it didn't go too well..I thought I had better re-demo as I had heard good things about this machine.

Paper I want to run:
Carolina 14pt C2S 306 GSM
Carolina 15pt. C1S 280 GSM

Files to the rep before hand

I was asked if I could provide short grained paper the day before the demo.
I declined, as the short grain will cause me trouble in my offline finishing.

Factory rep and sales person were well informed..walked me through machine and answered all questions.

Machine did pull the heavy paper...but had some issues with quality. It seemed to generally fuse OK, but had scratches across the image..and some "chatter" as I've heard it referred to.
Reps asked if I could leave paper for further testing.

This demo went way better than my first experience. I think this machine would perform well with lighter stock, but that is not what I am looking for. We run 12pt. now on our Oce' 665


Richo has informed me that their machine will not run the paper I want to use

I have declined to move forward with Xerox for the same paper issues.

We have decided to go with Canon.

Price was reasonable, and the Canon was the only machine able to "load and go" with our paper. We also have decided to go with the 6010 as we have capacity and speed is not our concern at this point.

I expect to have this in-house next month sometime..I'll post how it goes.

I just completed 2 sided personalized selfmailer card. Little bit more then 6000 impressions. It was printed on Xerox 1000, using Supreme Matte 16pt stock with heavy solids. It printed perfectly well without any paper jams

 

[wmwilker]

wmwilker,
How's it going with the new install?

I apologize for not coming back sooner with our experience.

The install has not gone as smooth as we would like.
We had our Xerox 7000 removed on June 14th with expectations of having the Canon C7010VP delivered on the 15th and up and running by the end of the week June 17th.
Of course things rarely go as planned.
The Canon was delivered on the 15th but with the marking unit (fuser unit) damaged. Of course the blame game gets thrown around.
The Canon rep gets one ordered but it takes over a week to get the unit here and installed. We get the machine running on June 28th. Our department does have a Xerox 700 which is used during that time. Thankfully this has been a slow time for us so it didn't hurt to not have the available production.

On to other matters.
When we spoke to our sales person we told them what we wanted and needed. We made the assumption that they paid attention. Well, that is not the case. We received the "Customer Expectation" document and looked it over and everything looked fine. One of our needs it to have a minimum of 4 paper drawers. We thought we had that with the 2 main drawers and with the POD Deck which has 3 drawers. For whatever reason the sales person ordered the Paper Deck which is 1 large drawer. In the Customer Expectation document it listed the Paper Deck with 3 drawers in parentheses. Well I thought it meant that the deck had 3 drawers but it meant 3 drawers total. After much discussion and a week and a half delivery time we got the POD Deck with 3 drawers. I really dislike when sales people don't listen and make assumptions.
BTW: if you get a C7010 DO NOT get the Paper Deck-AC1. The design is horrible and I continually had jams during the time I used it.

Another issue I have is the training. I've used the Creo Spire for years and had a pretty good idea of how the Canon/Creo A7000 would work. There have been a lot of changes but for the most part I could find my way with the software.
The biggest issue was with the printer interface. I had no clue how to operate many of the features on the printer.
It took 2 weeks for a trainer to show us what we needed to know. That is unacceptable.

Another fact that needs to be know is that we purchased the machine from an Oce/Canon factory dealer not a service company.

Okay now for some positive things.
The print quality is very good. I've compared prints from the same file with a Xerox 800 and they are comparable with the Xerox having better shadow detail. That could be from some of the settings but the quality is good.
The paper catalog on the Creo is a big help but I think it's on the KM and Xerox also.
The Canon has an added feature in the paper catalog that allows you to change the curl and also change a setting called the Secondary Transfer Voltage. It allows you to change the voltage for textured stock (laid/linen) so that the dry ink is pulled into the textured area. It works really well on linen or laid stock.

Back to some other issues.
We print lots of training manuals and our technical writers love to use PowerPoint. The printer is having issues with some of the larger files and it will jam because it can't keep up the data flow to the machine. At least that's what our service rep is telling me. They are working on a fix for this and I hope it's soon as it jams every 100 to 200 sheets on these type jobs.

Overall the printer is pretty good and if we can get all the bugs out I think it will serve us well. (I hope)

I am still learning the machine and I know I will find more tweaks and work-arounds as I become more familiar with the printer. I will post more as I learn more.

Sorry for the long post but I'll be glad to answer any questions that I can.

 

[wmwilker]

I'm going to copy and paste my last post into another thread that is titled Canon C7010VP Install.
It may be helpful to others who don't want to go through this thread.

 

[OBH]

wmwilker,

Thanks very much for your detailed response. Appreciate it!

Man the draw scenario sounds a little frustrating. Thanks for the heads up.

Now I'm unfamiliar with the Creo interface, we'll be opting for the Fiery... had an intro to it and I'm hopeful in time, this can be learnt.

The Powerpoint issue is a bit of an eyebrow-raiser... is the RIP built-in or standalone. I'm unsure of what we've had spec'ed in that regard.

Our initial impression was the quality was great for the price bracket... having said that the further down the path we go the more I want to put the machine through it's paces again and give it a good work out.

If you get the chance to impart any further experiences (good & bad) re this machine, that would be of huge benefit for us.

Thanks again
Good health

 

[wmwilker]

wmwilker,

Thanks very much for your detailed response. Appreciate it!

Man the draw scenario sounds a little frustrating. Thanks for the heads up.

Now I'm unfamiliar with the Creo interface, we'll be opting for the Fiery... had an intro to it and I'm hopeful in time, this can be learnt.

The Powerpoint issue is a bit of an eyebrow-raiser... is the RIP built-in or standalone. I'm unsure of what we've had spec'ed in that regard.

Our initial impression was the quality was great for the price bracket... having said that the further down the path we go the more I want to put the machine through it's paces again and give it a good work out.

If you get the chance to impart any further experiences (good & bad) re this machine, that would be of huge benefit for us.

Thanks again
Good health

I don't think that the Creo is the problem. We've had 2 different Creo Spire servers on our Xerox machines and never had this problem. I have a feeling that some input board may need changing. But we will see.

The price was the primary reason we went with the Canon and as far as quality goes we are not disappointed.

We always lease the machines as the technology will improve so we don't want to be stuck with something obsolete. With the Canon we chose to go with a 3 year lease.

 

[Realwelder]

Sorry to hear about your bad demo. It is obvious the people that were doing the demo has no clue about the unit. May I ask the geogrpahic location of where the demo took place and if it was a dealer?