Xerox DocuColor 5000 versus DocuColor 7002/8002

[jmstone]

I'd love to hear from someone who has experience with both machines. We've heard the imaging tech in the 8002 is similar to the older 5000s. We have 2 5000s right now, and more than anything we have problem with the color drums.

In a job with about 2,000 12x18 sheets, we might have to change 3-4 color drums throughout the job. There's no indication they need replacing until we have streaks of color across the paper, so the only way to cut down on waste & reprints is to check the stack every few seconds.

The problem is the same with both 5000s. It may be due to our high use of toner, but either way it's problem.

So does anyone know if the 7002 or 8002 has the same or similar drums? Anybody having this issue with their 5000s? I'm not sure how long the 7002/8002s have been on the market, I just don't want to be stuck with this problem again.

 

[mac_man_luke]

you replace 3-4 drums on a job 2000 sheet???

We would be lucky to replace a drum every 50,000 sheets+ on both our Xerox 5540 and Konica 6501

 

[easiprint]

Agree with Luke, we get an average of 70,000 on drums in our 5252. Replacing that often must make the running costs impossibly high. If you only had the one machine I would say there is a problem with the machine somewhere, but if you have two with the same problem, I would be looking at the environmental conditions in your shop and are the drums you have good or do you have a bad batch?

 

[amsman]

Drum Issue

Drum Issue

I agree with Luke and Easiprint's posts. We had a 5000 running about 50k - 70k per sheets per month 310gsm board mainly, and I would need to replace a drum ( mainly the yellow from memory) every 30k - 40k.

I would also check the environment. If you have a CTP or Film Processor in close proximity to the 5000 the fumes can cause issues with the machines operation.

Check the drum cleanning brushes, I cannot remember if they are part of the changeover drum, but any buildup in the brush will damage the surface of the drum. Otherwise check your stock to make sure it's not covered in dust, dirt or even spraypowder etc.

As for the 7002 / 8002 they have colour variation across the sheet issues. Just ask Xerox the'll tell you some cock and bull story. Stay with the 5000, its slower but its a better box than the other two, also laminating is near impossible from the 7002 / 8002.

Good Luck

 

[Josh]

How long have you had to change 3-4 drums every 2k sheets? That's a 3-4 drums every hour and a half!? ...if you're doing say 50k prints a month that's 100 drums per month? REALLY? ...something's wrong there.

However, the drums in the 7/8002s are different and apparently do last longer but as said there are various colour issues with them. Have a search of the forum for more details.

I'd get your 5000s looked at (I'm amazed the techs haven't already if you're going through that many drums) but I'd avoid the 7/8002s due to the issues...

 

[jmstone]

Sorry, I may have made my 5000s sound worse than they are. It's not every 2000 sheets for sure, it's just a worse case senario, typically it happens when we do a 12x18 duplexed sheet w/ about 90% coverage - so when we're really covering the page. A job like that might go through 2 drums on average, but then their are times when we get lucky and times when it's worse. It really does seem to matter whether we're "painting" the sheet with toner versus something with only a little toner like letterhead.

As for the environment, they're in a climate controlled warehouse and there's no equipment anywhere near them. The techs have taken note, but they don't think it's out of the ordinary; in fact they just keep us well-stocked in drums. I've got about a dozen color drums on the shelf at the moment.

To me it's the weak point of an otherwise pretty reliable and consistant machine. Interesting to hear about the color variation issues w/ the 7/8002s. I'll do some searching, that's definitely not an issue we want to deal with.

 

[ShortRunMagazines]

I've got JMSTONES back on this one... We have 3 DC5000APs and our reorder point is 36 color drums. We go through about 20 per week and it fails exactly as described. All three machines. (As for environment, we are digital only and run HEPA filters throughout so it's not that--and Xerox agrees.)

I am looking at the 8002 for the same reason. Right now I have to pay a full time employee to do circles in production checking for streaks or dots.

Xerox told me this is "normal" for our load...

 

[jmstone]

I've got JMSTONES back on this one... We have 3 DC5000APs and our reorder point is 36 color drums. We go through about 20 per week and it fails exactly as described. All three machines. (As for environment, we are digital only and run HEPA filters throughout so it's not that--and Xerox agrees.)

I am looking at the 8002 for the same reason. Right now I have to pay a full time employee to do circles in production checking for streaks or dots.

Xerox told me this is "normal" for our load...

I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one, and kind of happy we only have two. Any more and we'd need to get a person just to check the print quality.

So have you heard anything about the 8002 that makes you think drums wouldn't be a problem, or do you think it would be a similar scenario?

 

[Milo Wilson]

I've got JMSTONES back on this one... We have 3 DC5000APs and our reorder point is 36 color drums. We go through about 20 per week and it fails exactly as described. All three machines. (As for environment, we are digital only and run HEPA filters throughout so it's not that--and Xerox agrees.)

I am looking at the 8002 for the same reason. Right now I have to pay a full time employee to do circles in production checking for streaks or dots.

Xerox told me this is "normal" for our load...

What kind of volume do you do a week per machine?!?

 

[TOprint]

Folks, I am a Ricoh employee and I'm not promoting the Ricoh product in this string, but have to ask a question ... After reading all the issues you are experiencing with the 5000, why on earth would you consider solving your problem by buying more equipment from the same vendor?

Hope this isn't seen as an insulting question, but it is just baffling to me!

Thanks

 

[Craig]

Folks, I am a Ricoh employee and I'm not promoting the Ricoh product in this string, but have to ask a question ... After reading all the issues you are experiencing with the 5000, why on earth would you consider solving your problem by buying more equipment from the same vendor?

Hope this isn't seen as an insulting question, but it is just baffling to me!

Thanks

I agree 100%!! That's why our Ricoh MP9000 is being replaced with a Konica Minolta 1200!

Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones....

 

[ShortRunMagazines]

What kind of volume do you do a week per machine?!?

We do approximately 120,000-160,000 12x18 printed sides per month per machine.

 

[ShortRunMagazines]

Folks, I am a Ricoh employee and I'm not promoting the Ricoh product in this string, but have to ask a question ... After reading all the issues you are experiencing with the 5000, why on earth would you consider solving your problem by buying more equipment from the same vendor?

Hope this isn't seen as an insulting question, but it is just baffling to me!

Thanks

Because, in this space there are only a few players and every other one has been eliminated:

Ricoh 900/901 -- looks like crap on Gloss Text as there is no (zero/zilch) gloss on the printed area (80%+ of our paper is gloss text)
KM 6000/7000 Slows down to much on higher gsm/coated papers
KM 8000 Costs more than double our currect machine price and click rate is 12% higher.
Canon Imagepress -- three words "CANON FINANCIAL SERVICES" 'nuf said.
HP -- needs to remove their head from the sand (I'm being politically correct, but I'm actually thinking of a part of their anatomy instead) and take a current look at click charges.

 

[Craig]

"Canon Imagepress -- three words "CANON FINANCIAL SERVICES" 'nuf said."
I take it you had the displeasure of dealing with them too! LOL!!!

The one you didn't mention is Kodak. Also with that volume why have you not gone to an iGen (other than it is outrageously expensive)?

 

[ShortRunMagazines]

"Canon Imagepress -- three words "CANON FINANCIAL SERVICES" 'nuf said."
I take it you had the displeasure of dealing with them too! LOL!!!

The one you didn't mention is Kodak. Also with that volume why have you not gone to an iGen (other than it is outrageously expensive)?

iGen, now featuring $20,000 in buildout, a monthly payment that would pay for 7 DC5000APs and a click charge that increases my per page cost by 20%+. I know, I know, I get the cheap black clicks (anyone care to do the math on how many black clicks it takes to offset the lease payment increase of $6,000/month when saving $0.004? It's 1.5million if you are wondering...) Oh, almost forgot the added electricity and a monthly insurance payment of almost $500/month (that's just the increase for the machine to our existing policy!).

My view on Kodak... Aren't they operating their business on the front steps of the bankruptcy court? (for convience I hear...)

Canon Financial... Their official position is they wont lease us a Imagepress 7010VP because they seem to think we do not have an account with Xerox. Nevermind the copies of over $100,000 in payments in the last year alone we provided and the little thing called the account number!?! (Overlooking the zero late payments in the 1.5 years we have been with Xerox Capital and the average payment time of something like 13 days from invoice.) They would lease us a used (not refurb) Imagepress 6000 (non VP) with a PG and a down payment of 20%... And, at their own admission, they said we would not be happy with the uptime or quality! But they would love our click volume.... I'm just saying...

 

[[email protected]]

Well you do realize that in the manual the drums are rated (approximated actually) for 278,000 on the black drum and 115,000 on the color drum.

Assuming, single sided, your 160,000 12x18 is really more like 320,000 (drums are rated in LTR) which is 2.78 color drums which in reality with coverages, etc., should be rounded up to 4 drum or so per month and figure one for each color and you're looking at 16'ish drums or so per month.

I fail to see the big surprise here.

We do approximately 120,000-160,000 12x18 printed sides per month per machine.

 

[jmstone]

Well, the surprise is that the drums rarely last for the rated amount before getting a subtle defect, and often we have to change the SAME drum multiple times per job. I had a 5,000 sheet job last week that required 4 cyan drums, in addition to the other drums needing changing. The tech confirmed it was not a problem with the developer housing either. In fact, two of the techs have told me that there is often bad drums, which I didn't find very confidence building. Sometimes we went through what would have been a long lasting inventory very quickly, but at least the techs have been very quick about getting us more drums when we're out.

 

[Digital Insight]

We are in the same "bad drums" boat

I run TWO Xerox 5000's

We are LUCKY when we get 15k out of a drum.

Cyan seems to fail the most.

We used AT LEAST 12-15 drums last week alone.

Xerox currently says "there might be a bad batch" of drums going around.

Ya think?

Simple fact: Color drums on the 5000 suck.

Sometimes, like now, they just suck more.

Rob

 

[bobzilla32000]

I have only one 8002 and like you the drums need replacing once a week, it has other quality issues as well and Xerox is replacing this 8002 with a 8080 we will se if that is any better, I doubt it. What I would like to know is where are the 8002's that the sales people keep saying are running great?

 

[kristie]

We have both a Ricoh 901 and a Xerox 8002. Hands down the Ricoh has better copy quality, less machine issues, runs larger and heavier stock and just plain beats the Xerox. We have been a xerox customer for about 15 years, and our next copier will be a Ricoh. It has proven to be a great machine, the techs are fabulous and we couldn't be happier.