Xerox Versant 180 vs Ricoh C7200

[mongoose]

I've been going through the process of getting a new Digital Press for our Print Shop. I need some inputs from those who have been using these models.
I have the proposals from the big 4 Xerox, Ricoh, Canon and Konica for the following models.
Xerox Versant 180/ with and without the Performance package + Vivid Color option
Ricoh C7200e (4 Colors) / C7210X (5 Colors)
Canon ImagePress C910
Konica C3080/C6085

I have compared the print samples from all of the machines mentioned above on the same paper. From quality/registration/color standpoint, we narrowed down to either Ricoh or Xerox.
We ruled out the Konica because we don't like its glossy look. Ricoh/Xerox gave the most matte look compared to other brands since we like our prints to be as close to offset look as possible.

Price wise: We found the pricing is in the order of Ricoh, Xerox, Konica, Canon (cheapest). Click charge is pretty much the same. I'm not too concerned about the cost. You get what you pay for is our philosophy.

I've read a lot of posts on this forum. Everyone has something good and bad to say about all these models and the services.
Now, we are in Northern California where we are surrounded by these companies so services should not be a problem for any of these vendors.

I've narrowed down to a few negative points about the Xerox Versant 180 and Ricoh 7200 that might matter to us.

Xerox Versant 180:
1. 2nd BTR issue: lines on roller which causes bad streaking. This issue magnifies when running long NCR jobs or coated stocks.
2. Some people said they have experienced some issue with thicker stock and coated stock.
We tend to push the limit of the printer with different kind of stocks. Ranging from NCR (11"x17") to 12pt, 14pt, 16pt, 110lb , 130lb, coated, uncoated, metallic, synthetic, pvc.
Wanted to try some cotton stock as well but have not dared to try yet. Anyone tried to feed cotton stock through their digital printers yet?
Cotton stocks are mostly used for our Foil/LetterPress machines and pretty thick.

Ricoh C7200/C7210:
1. Envelope printing is a bit hotter than other brands where #10 Envelopes with Windows (even with the Digital safe version) might be wrinkled a little bit
2. Certain size and types of envelopes will need to have flap opened in order to print properly. We print A1, A2, A7, A7+, 6x9, #9, #10 with/without windows regularly.

Anyone has experienced with those Xerox/Ricoh models and tell me if my findings are accurate or not true?

Background:
We are Commercial Printer where we print almost anything from business cards/postcards/NCR/envelopes, etc. to high end invitations and other large format stuff.
We still run a lot of stuff on our old school Offset machines but we are slowly trying to get rid of those and moving more to Digital machines.

 

[SoggyWinter]

Hanamulhe rag paper ran through my Xerox V3100 without issue. That is the only cotton experiment that I have ran.

 

[SoggyWinter]

You might want to quote a Versant 3100 and compare with your 180 quote. I found that the Versant 3100 was less expensive than the 180 because of the lower click charges. The 3100 also comes with a performance guarantee called a CED/Customer Expectations Document. This may be a good time to buy a Versant because there is a successor line that was just announced by Fuji that features an improved paper path, so I'd expect the legacy Versants be sold at a discount.

 

[mongoose]

You might want to quote a Versant 3100 and compare with your 180 quote. I found that the Versant 3100 was less expensive than the 180 because of the lower click charges. The 3100 also comes with a performance guarantee called a CED/Customer Expectations Document. This may be a good time to buy a Versant because there is a successor line that was just announced by Fuji that features an improved paper path, so I'd expect the legacy Versants be sold at a discount.

Thx. I will ask for the Versant 3100 as well.. At the high level, beside it's a faster and bigger box. Is there a much difference in image quality? is Versant 180 to 3100 similar to Konica C3080 to C6085/C6100? I do see a noticable in image quality between Konica 3080 vs 6085.

 

[SoggyWinter]

Thx. I will ask for the Versant 3100 as well.. At the high level, beside it's a faster and bigger box. Is there a much difference in image quality? is Versant 180 to 3100 similar to Konica C3080 to C6085/C6100? I do see a noticable in image quality between Konica 3080 vs 608

I did not research image quality differences. The 3100 also includes a stock library management app that while buggy, is still a huge timesaver.

 

[azehnali]

you can create your own library of stocks (on the 3100 that is)
super simple and you have plenty of trays to assign to each stock
most people only use 2 to 4 stocks anyway

 

[pippip]

The 180 and 3100 should be the exact same image quality, print image engine is same in both. 180 has stock library too.
3100 just has alot more sensors etc. helping better accuracy on paper path. 3100 has Full width array which the 180 only has SIQA.

 

[azehnali]

the quality on the 3100 is probably 20% better and no they are not the same at all

 

[EZPower]

I would seriously look into Ricoh 9200 series. We expanded our print options by getting two of them. 9110 first then adding 9210.

 

[Shawnd]

Check to see if Xerox has a program to let you work on the machine if it goes down, Ricoh has the TRCU program where they will train you to fix quite a bit on the machine and it is a huge time saver when you go down, they also keep parts on site.

I am still testing the 7200e I had installed last week so I will hold off judgment till I have had it a while longer, I have a 7110 still and have been happy with that model. I never could get the 7110 to feed envelopes and I am working on that with the 7200e.

 

[kdw75]

I've been going through the process of getting a new Digital Press for our Print Shop. I need some inputs from those who have been using these models.
I have the proposals from the big 4 Xerox, Ricoh, Canon and Konica for the following models.
Xerox Versant 180/ with and without the Performance package + Vivid Color option
Ricoh C7200e (4 Colors) / C7210X (5 Colors)
Canon ImagePress C910
Konica C3080/C6085

I have compared the print samples from all of the machines mentioned above on the same paper. From quality/registration/color standpoint, we narrowed down to either Ricoh or Xerox.
We ruled out the Konica because we don't like its glossy look. Ricoh/Xerox gave the most matte look compared to other brands since we like our prints to be as close to offset look as possible.

Price wise: We found the pricing is in the order of Ricoh, Xerox, Konica, Canon (cheapest). Click charge is pretty much the same. I'm not too concerned about the cost. You get what you pay for is our philosophy.

I've read a lot of posts on this forum. Everyone has something good and bad to say about all these models and the services.
Now, we are in Northern California where we are surrounded by these companies so services should not be a problem for any of these vendors.

I've narrowed down to a few negative points about the Xerox Versant 180 and Ricoh 7200 that might matter to us.

Xerox Versant 180:
1. 2nd BTR issue: lines on roller which causes bad streaking. This issue magnifies when running long NCR jobs or coated stocks.
2. Some people said they have experienced some issue with thicker stock and coated stock.
We tend to push the limit of the printer with different kind of stocks. Ranging from NCR (11"x17") to 12pt, 14pt, 16pt, 110lb , 130lb, coated, uncoated, metallic, synthetic, pvc.
Wanted to try some cotton stock as well but have not dared to try yet. Anyone tried to feed cotton stock through their digital printers yet?
Cotton stocks are mostly used for our Foil/LetterPress machines and pretty thick.

Ricoh C7200/C7210:
1. Envelope printing is a bit hotter than other brands where #10 Envelopes with Windows (even with the Digital safe version) might be wrinkled a little bit
2. Certain size and types of envelopes will need to have flap opened in order to print properly. We print A1, A2, A7, A7+, 6x9, #9, #10 with/without windows regularly.

Anyone has experienced with those Xerox/Ricoh models and tell me if my findings are accurate or not true?

Background:
We are Commercial Printer where we print almost anything from business cards/postcards/NCR/envelopes, etc. to high end invitations and other large format stuff.
We still run a lot of stuff on our old school Offset machines but we are slowly trying to get rid of those and moving more to Digital machines.

Sounds pretty accurate. We currently have a V2100, Ricoh 7200SL and a Ricoh 7210X at our shop. Let me know if you have any questions that others haven't answered.

 

[printing4me]

@mongoose Just wondering what shut you down on the Canon? I run a C700 a bit older model and I am impressed with the wide gamut of run-ability on the things you mentioned minus the 16Pt and above stock. Envelopes (with kit)(not the small ones), carbonless, coated/uncoated, synthetics and what not seem to run well.

 

[Craig]

Our V180 with the production kit(whatever they call it) will not run 100lb gloss text to save itself. You might get a few thousand and then it starts to fall off registration F2B real bad. The image will go off the sheet. The machine has been like for liked and the same issue. They have replaced the entire duplex assembly, no change. Now they expect us to wipe down the duplex area with dryer sheets. I just laughed at them.
Also it eats 2nd BTR's with gloss text/cover like a fat kid and chocolate cake! One more year left on lease and out the door it goes! We run only uncoated text and cover on it now.

 

[mongoose]

@mongoose Just wondering what shut you down on the Canon? I run a C700 a bit older model and I am impressed with the wide gamut of run-ability on the things you mentioned minus the 16Pt and above stock. Envelopes (with kit)(not the small ones), carbonless, coated/uncoated, synthetics and what not seem to run well.

Canon ImagePress C910 is pretty nice as well. On Coated paper, it's pretty nice but somehow when comparing with Ricoh/Xerox, it's still a bit more glossy than we like. Btw, what we did was to have the same file printed on all of these machines on coated paper and other paper type as well. I conducted an eye test by asking 3 different vendors and 7 other people including in house graphic designers and friends. I don't let them know which prints are from which machines. I shuffle samples up and ask those people to choose which one they liked the most and least. Interestingly, everyone including the vendors happened to choose Konica is the least favorite followed by Canon, then Ricoh/Xerox are too close to call. I know it's not a scientific experiment and 100% accurate but it's still something. Then the front/back registration on canon is a bit less tight compared others as well. I was told that on Canon, you don't profile each paper type since the machine is good and has the mechanism to automatic check and adjust. I'm not sure I believe that or like that. We print on all kind of media and paper types so we prefer to profile/tune it in for each type for the most accuracy if possible. If i'm on a budget, I would consider Canon since it's lowest among others. But we value quality over price.

 

[Shaare]

Our V180 with the production kit(whatever they call it) will not run 100lb gloss text to save itself. You might get a few thousand and then it starts to fall off registration F2B real bad. The image will go off the sheet. The machine has been like for liked and the same issue. They have replaced the entire duplex assembly, no change. Now they expect us to wipe down the duplex area with dryer sheets. I just laughed at them.
Also it eats 2nd BTR's with gloss text/cover like a fat kid and chocolate cake! One more year left on lease and out the door it goes! We run only uncoated text and cover on it now.

Hi Craig, I'm an analyst for xerox and I deal with Versants all day long. Can I kindly ask what your stock and which city you are in?

 

[Craig]

Hi Craig, I'm an analyst for xerox and I deal with Versants all day long. Can I kindly ask what your stock and which city you are in?

We've used Blazer 100lb gloss text. We are in Sandusky Ohio.

 

[k_graham]

We've used Blazer 100lb gloss text. We are in Sandusky Ohio.

When we purchased a Graphic Whizard we had issues with it cracking on creasing. Probably too much clay and not enough fiber. Fortunately other brands did not have the issue. I would try another brand like Productolith , sorry I am semi-retired now so not sure what papers they are running now but its not Blazer.

 

[[email protected]]

I have experience of running some of these. First the Xerox. Both Versant 80 and 2100 and 3100 all had 2nd BTR (bias transfer roller) problems until another engineer was sent ( as the first pair were unable to resolve the problem), he fixed all three machines within 45 minutes and they have never had a problem since.
Second the Ricoh with 5th colour white, client eventually gave up and it only runs cmyk, but it works.
Third Canon. At one point in the UK Canon were undercutting their own dealers to try and get sales. They still have the (deserved) reputation of paper feeds jamming unles you spend a little time shuffling the paper to aerate the sheets before loading.
Finally the best quality can only be obtained by colour calibrating these units properly - everyday even if running 24/7.

 

[azehnali]

can you find out what he did to resolve the BTR issue ?

 

[azehnali]

I have experience of running some of these. First the Xerox. Both Versant 80 and 2100 and 3100 all had 2nd BTR (bias transfer roller) problems until another engineer was sent ( as the first pair were unable to resolve the problem), he fixed all three machines within 45 minutes and they have never had a problem since.
Second the Ricoh with 5th colour white, client eventually gave up and it only runs cmyk, but it works.
Third Canon. At one point in the UK Canon were undercutting their own dealers to try and get sales. They still have the (deserved) reputation of paper feeds jamming unles you spend a little time shuffling the paper to aerate the sheets before loading.
Finally the best quality can only be obtained by colour calibrating these units properly - everyday even if running 24/7.

can you find out what he did on the versant to get rid of the issue
thanks