Xerox X700 vs Canon C6000Vp

[flash96xp]

Sorry bout asking again but it's been a year ago that this same question was asked. I am making my final desision tomorrow and just wanted to hear from x700's and c6000vp owners on problems, etc...
Thank you!

 

[BrentHals]

Two completely different machines. What are you trying to accomplish? I'm sure we can all list pros and cons for days but if they don't apply we're just shooting in the dark.

DC700:
Smaller footprint
Lower lease/purchase price
Registration +/- 1mm.

iP6000:
Larger footprint
Registration +/- .5mm
All media from all drawers
Match media's finish (gloss optimization)

On and on...

 

[flash96xp]

Thanks Brent, I just wanted an up to date observation and usage. This forum has been very helpful to determine pro/com of both machines.

 

[aqa-man]

canon great

canon great

I've looked extensively at both of these, and most of the competition; the canon is incredible... if you can get one at anything near the cost of a 700, knock their hand off! Make sure you have enough space for it though.. its twice the size of a 700.
I'm speaking without bias here, as I bought something else.. but wish I could afford the canon.

 

[flash96xp]

I thank you for you honest opinion! It will be used to determine the machine I will award.

 

[Craig]

The 6000VP would be more in line with the 5000AP or the 7000AP from Xerox. That would be the better comparison. What you wanted was like a Mazda RX8 to a Porshe 911, not quite in the same league.

 

[lkl7255]

flash96xp- I obviously don't own either (I work at Xerox) but like Craig said, the Xerox 700 and Canon 6000VP are not the best comparison. The best way to determine what is best for you is the type of jobs you run, your monthly volume, and the types of jobs you'd like to get into.

These machines have different monthly volumes, different capabilities when it comes to heavyweight stock, customer replaceable units, footprint, and registration...

What kind of jobs do you run?

 

[kt89]

resolution between both...

resolution between both...

I'm also similiarly looking into either both models but got rather confused between both sales person trying to bang on different angles of sales points.

Canon emphasizing on their resolution is true 1200dpi with 8 bit color depth.
Xerox in return is emphasizing on 2400dpi (but could not confirm if it is true resolution), and of course 1 bit color depth.

Are you guys able to help out this resolution, if the 2400dpi is true or emulation?

 

[lkl7255]

Resolution is a confusing topic for sure.

First, some people might quote the RIP resolution, others might quote PRINT resolution, and others may not even know WHAT they are quoting! So you need to make sure you are comparing apples to apples.

For Canon’s resolution, do you know if that is the RIP or print resolution?
The 2400 x 2400 x 1 is Xerox’s print resolution, that is a true resolution and achievable because of our VCSEL laser technology (it uses 32 laser beams instead of 2).

Most importantly, there is so much more to resolution aside from doing the math and figuring out the total number of addressable dots for each engine.

Real resolution is dependent on a number of factors:
- The effect of printer-resident image processing
- Halftoning / Dithering / Thresholding / Screening methods
- Sharpness of imaging optics
- Fidelity of the xerographic system, etc.

To be honest, I think you reach a point where the resolution is pretty high with all production printers, so the best way to determine which machine has the best resolution/quality for your business needs is to do a test with your own files and use your own eyes as the judge. I think both Canon and Xerox do a good job printing smooth gradients/vignettes, freshtones, etc.

Xerox will test your file for you (and I am sure Canon will do the same).

It is kind of like buying a camera… people might see 10 megapixels vs. 12 megapixels and assume the 12 is better without considering other things and without looking at output from the cameras.

 

[InfoPrint]

For Canon’s resolution, do you know if that is the RIP or print resolution?
The 2400 x 2400 x 1 is Xerox’s print resolution, that is a true resolution and achievable because of our VCSEL laser technology (it uses 32 laser beams instead of 2).

That's an interesting statement. However, if the RIP is at a lower resolution, what is the result then?

 

[kt89]

Thanks for the info. I have just called the Canon agent here to confirm about the laser beam and they took like a while before coming back about the laser question...

Two question I got replied;
1) 32 laser beams or mirror? Referring to laser heads
2) It mentioned that Canon is built with 2 laser heads and 41 facets mirror

This is getting way too technical, eventually, my bosses only looks at the physical numbers of resolution and being bother about the technicality of the laser stuff.

I myself being the Production guy using the product eventually, being very skeptical about the great price differences.

I got both prints and, I could say...
1) The Xerox tends to give good dot reproduction (very fine), but poor color (after profiles being used)
2) The Canon is producing rough/coarse dots but the solid and color is exceptionally good, not mentioning its quality of color depth & gloss similiar to the offset.

 

[BackLight Production]

Canon 6000

Canon 6000

If your volume is less than 300K, small clicks, a month withour question I would go with the Canon 6000, but I would not purchase it from CBS. I would find the best agent in your area that know how to service the machine, if you were in the west coast I would tell you to go to IKON. Best of Luck...

 

[lkl7255]

kt89- I would echo what I stated previously to Flash96xp and along the lines of the BackLight Production is saying. The Xerox 700 and Canon 7000VP are two different machines when it comes to monthly production levels, customer replacable units, all that jazz. If your monthly volume is into the hundred thousands, that is out of the range we recommend for the Xerox 700. It'd be more of a fair comparison against the DocuColor 5000AP/7000AP/8000AP. It all comes down to what jobs you print, workflows, if you do complex VI, substrates, and where you want to take your business in the future I am curious about the profiles though and why the 700 appears to have bad color.
What RIP was used?

 

[lkl7255]

That's an interesting statement. However, if the RIP is at a lower resolution, what is the result then?

As kt89 mentioned, this really does begin to become way to technical for what people are really interested in for the long run!! I do feel I owe an explaination to InfoPrint though, since this resolution question is often unanswered/confusing and many other businesses avoid answering it.

I am not surprised Canon and Konica Minolta haven't jumped into this conversation.
So, here goes.

The dots you see on paper will be at the screen frequency being used. You don’t need a powerful loupe…7x to 10x will do. If both products used the same 200 halftone dot screen you will see the same number of halftone dots through the loupe. Xerox typically uses a 200 halftone dot screen (Canon I believe uses 175), but we have a variety of other screens available to choose. The 2400dpi is at the pixel level. You don’t see these on prints. The pixels convert to lasers that write the halftone dots or lines of the image on the photoreceptor.

You don’t get anymore color information by going from 600x600x8 bit to 2400x2400x1bit; you get faster writing, higher frequency halftone screens without loosing color data (gray levels), as well as better screen dot shape for smoother lines, text, and pictorial sharpness.

As I stated above, resolution is also affected by other things like the paper, sharpness of imaging optics, fidelity of the xerographic system, etc so you really need to have your jobs tested and take a look.

If there are more questions around this, please send me a message or e-mail. That way I can hook you up with an expert who can answer more technical questions that are beyond what I know! I tried..!!

 

[UberTech]

I am not surprised Canon and Konica Minolta haven't jumped into this conversation.
So, here goes.

This conversation has been on this forum many many times and at the end of the day if your decision hinges on how many laser beams your machine has then maybe your should make sure the colour of the panels match you decor as well.

The reason I haven't chipped in here is because this was a canon/xerox thread but Im not one to turn down an invite.

If the VCSEL was 8-bit then I think we could draw some comparisons here but it isn't. It is one bit so it is either on or it is off. Canon/Konica like the IGEN are 8 bit so the write unit uses pulse width modulation (think light dimmeir) to adjust the laser beams.

I will be honest, the x700 prints better than a Konica when it comes to sharpness. If my wish list was 'must have lots of lasers and prints sharp' then yeah, I would buy an x700. However I would hope most of our wishlists were a bit longer than that. The x700 and 6000 comparison is a no brainer for me I would go the 6000 as fundamentaly it is a production printer as is the x7000/8000.

Many people have said that the x700 was designed to take on the c650X, I think this may have been in price only as from what I have read on this forum it falls short of the mark.

 

[bhm8hwcm]

I just received some print samples back that were done on the Canon 6000. I also received samples of the same file printed on the Xerox 700 and 5000. I have not had a lot of time to compare them all, but so far the Canon looks pretty good, though the resolution of the 5000 seems to print a little higher.

One thing I have noticed with the Canon samples (as well as all Canon provided samples and literature) is that they use a line pattern for screening. I have a Xerox 250 with EFI rip and I know there are options for using a 200 Line Cluster (round) dot as well as a 200 Rotated Line. In most cases I always use the cluster dot (round). I was wondering if anybody knows if the Canon has the ability to do a round dot as well. I suppose this may be a function of the RIP but I think the Canon may only have the one RIP platform.

Any thoughts on the round versus line?

Also a question for lkl7255, I notice some Xerox literature stating a 600 Cluster dot. Above you state Xerox usually uses a 200 halftone screen so I was wondering what exactly the 600 cluster dot is. Is it that much different from the 200 Cluster dot?

 

[StrikTenn913]

I was wondering if anybody knows if the Canon has the ability to do a round dot as well.

Yes, the Canon can render a dot pattern. There are multiple dot or line patterns at different frequencies that users can choose from on the engine. Users can even manually create a pattern in the Fiery controller. You should ask for samples using different patterns. You will see advantages and disadvantages to using any particular screen depending on what exactly is being imaged.

 

[lkl7255]

bhm8hwcm-- I will look into that for you!

maybe your should make sure the colour of the panels match you decor as well.

...The reason I haven't chipped in here is because this was a canon/xerox thread but Im not one to turn down an invite.

...However I would hope most of our wishlists were a bit longer than that. The x700 and 6000 comparison is a no brainer for me I would go the 6000 as fundamentaly it is a production printer as is the x7000/8000.

...Many people have said that the x700 was designed to take on the c650X, I think this may have been in price only as from what I have read on this forum it falls short of the mark.

1. I have no idea what you mean by your first sentence, but you really don't need to explain.
2. You are completely right, I shouldn't have mentioned KM, but I think it's great you responded now that I "pulled you in" by accident. Thanks
3. I agree that the C7000VP is more in the production realm of the DocuColor 5000AP/7000AP/8000AP.
4. I don't think the Xerox 700 falls short of the mark at all. I do not bash competitive equipment because I feel different customers have different needs and priorities when looking to purchase a printer. There are many posts that love the 700 and dislike the KM6501, and vice versa. Same with the Canon and Xerox as well. As I have mentioned in my posts, there are a lot of questions to ask to help determine what is best for the customer.

 

[rsands]

its down to your eye and your preference...faults can be picked upon easily on all machines!

 

[flash96xp]

Thank you for all of your reply on this topic. I have gained way more info and technical terminology, information on machines that I have never knew existed. Your generosity to reply and spend the time to explain has well been accepted. This is not a reply to close this subject matter and say it's over and the winner is... I will let everyone know of my choice when the time comes.