Do not buy ink from Heidelberg! They know very little about true ink chemistry. They are just in the ink resale business, to make $. You don't know what your getting in the can, and either do they. Heidelberg wants to get into the consumable business because they cannot raise enough revenue, just selling presses. If you do decide to buy ink from Heidelberg, I would suggest buying your printing press from Sun Comical. Understand both companies are now in a new venture, selling refrigerators to Eskimos. Beware!
XL105 Ink
- Thread starter herbert
- Start date
D Ink Man,
Care to identify what vendor you work for?
If you read the previous posts, our inks work well running at 18,000, some other inks do not. We do not have to be experts in inks, our ink manufacture is. What we do know how to do is build presses and print on these presses. So we can test, give feedback to our manufacture for a new formulation if needed. This is not limited to our inks, we follow this with many of our consumables. Heidelberg consumables tested on Heidelberg equipment be it plates with CtP, plates on press, inks on press, Fountain Solution on press....you get the idea.
Regards,
Mark
Care to identify what vendor you work for?
If you read the previous posts, our inks work well running at 18,000, some other inks do not. We do not have to be experts in inks, our ink manufacture is. What we do know how to do is build presses and print on these presses. So we can test, give feedback to our manufacture for a new formulation if needed. This is not limited to our inks, we follow this with many of our consumables. Heidelberg consumables tested on Heidelberg equipment be it plates with CtP, plates on press, inks on press, Fountain Solution on press....you get the idea.
Regards,
Mark
Mark,
I do not work for a vendor. I use to work for a company that manufactured ink and SERVICED them. They no longer do. Much is lost from the manufacturer, to the middle man to the printer. Companies like yours, and many others, practice the same methods. They cannot give TRUE SERVICE. Because the manufacturing consumable producers decided to embark on a plan to distribute through a company like yours, Heidelberg, the party that suffers is the printer. The printer ends up getting mostly lip service than HANDS ON Technical Service. Companies that practice this middle man approach will suffer, and I will give you an example. One very large ink company has passed their commercial offerings like SF ink to distributors. No SERVICE, just trying to do it with less people, peddling it off to someone so it isn't their problem, and everyone suffers. The ink company suffers because they got to bear bone the price for the Middle guy who then in turn try and sell it competitively. The Middle man suffers because he has to mark up the price to realize a profit, and effectively cannot SERVICE the account. That includes getting product on time to the printer, as well as getting TRUE Technical help. And the printer suffers because he has the potential to run out of product, receives lip service, with lack of technical help and is basically being fleeced. Believe me, the companies that offer SERVICE, and stick with SERVICING the products they manufacture are the ones that will be the most profitable in the long run. The printer will ultimately figure this out, and these are the printers that will thrive. It is just the way it works, just like the good old days. Eventually printing ink will again be looked at as a valuable entity and not like a commodity, which many of the larger companies see it as. SERVICE shall be King again. And everyone involved in this methodology will be the survivors and the ones that will be profitable.
I do not work for a vendor. I use to work for a company that manufactured ink and SERVICED them. They no longer do. Much is lost from the manufacturer, to the middle man to the printer. Companies like yours, and many others, practice the same methods. They cannot give TRUE SERVICE. Because the manufacturing consumable producers decided to embark on a plan to distribute through a company like yours, Heidelberg, the party that suffers is the printer. The printer ends up getting mostly lip service than HANDS ON Technical Service. Companies that practice this middle man approach will suffer, and I will give you an example. One very large ink company has passed their commercial offerings like SF ink to distributors. No SERVICE, just trying to do it with less people, peddling it off to someone so it isn't their problem, and everyone suffers. The ink company suffers because they got to bear bone the price for the Middle guy who then in turn try and sell it competitively. The Middle man suffers because he has to mark up the price to realize a profit, and effectively cannot SERVICE the account. That includes getting product on time to the printer, as well as getting TRUE Technical help. And the printer suffers because he has the potential to run out of product, receives lip service, with lack of technical help and is basically being fleeced. Believe me, the companies that offer SERVICE, and stick with SERVICING the products they manufacture are the ones that will be the most profitable in the long run. The printer will ultimately figure this out, and these are the printers that will thrive. It is just the way it works, just like the good old days. Eventually printing ink will again be looked at as a valuable entity and not like a commodity, which many of the larger companies see it as. SERVICE shall be King again. And everyone involved in this methodology will be the survivors and the ones that will be profitable.
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D Ink Man,
I will leave this as stated, read the comments from the XL 105 users running at 18,000 with our Saphira inks....they were not able to with some others inks. This is why we tested many inks and formulas, to determine what could run at 18,000 and after extensive testing and tweaking, came up with our Saphira solution.
Regards,
Mark
I will leave this as stated, read the comments from the XL 105 users running at 18,000 with our Saphira inks....they were not able to with some others inks. This is why we tested many inks and formulas, to determine what could run at 18,000 and after extensive testing and tweaking, came up with our Saphira solution.
Regards,
Mark
Kurt Wiggins
New member
As I type my response to this thread, I look over at the ‘magic box’ that is called a computer system. I purchased my computer system from a single source. The single source took a hard drive, keyboard, memory etc and built an integrated tool. When I have a problem I make one call and they fix it. Do I call the manufacturer of the failed part? No – I call the company who I trusted when I made the purchase. Now, I could have gone to the hard drive store and keyboard store and memory story etc and built my own computer. Would it be an integrated computer system? No it would be just parts that I put together to build a working computer. Who would I call for service or would have begun taking the separate parts back to the stores to which they were purchased?
Why not buy printing system components (plates, ink, chemistry and even spray powder) from a Heidelberg (a single source)?
When a Heidelberg customer integrates Saphira products into their pressroom, they are buying the Saphira system. If their printing system has an issue who do they call? Heidelberg. Now – that’s light years ahead of just ‘SERVICE’. It’s ownership of the problem.
Example – picture framing, misting . Is that an ink problem or a chemistry problem, a roller setting or could it be the plate? Each manufacturer could say “Oh my product is fine, it must be your ______”.
A single source supplier, points his finger at no one but themselves, rolls up their sleeves and fixes the problem.
Why not buy printing system components (plates, ink, chemistry and even spray powder) from a Heidelberg (a single source)?
When a Heidelberg customer integrates Saphira products into their pressroom, they are buying the Saphira system. If their printing system has an issue who do they call? Heidelberg. Now – that’s light years ahead of just ‘SERVICE’. It’s ownership of the problem.
Example – picture framing, misting . Is that an ink problem or a chemistry problem, a roller setting or could it be the plate? Each manufacturer could say “Oh my product is fine, it must be your ______”.
A single source supplier, points his finger at no one but themselves, rolls up their sleeves and fixes the problem.
Get a grip buddy
Get a grip buddy
What an a$$.
If I had been attempting to do something for 35 years, and had yet to achieve it - I certainly wouldn't try to shoot down someone, or any entity that has reached my goal. Besides, no one said it was the the "perfect" ink, just that they have a product that matches up with their equipment and performs to the highest degree.
Get a grip buddy
MarkTonk,
Congratulations on finding the PERFECT ink. I've been formualting and seeking that for 3 1/2 decades, and have not been able to do so. Kudos to you and Heidelberg.
What an a$$.
If I had been attempting to do something for 35 years, and had yet to achieve it - I certainly wouldn't try to shoot down someone, or any entity that has reached my goal. Besides, no one said it was the the "perfect" ink, just that they have a product that matches up with their equipment and performs to the highest degree.
I have a good bud that drives an XL105, and usually at 18,000 iph, (FIVE SHEETS PER SECOND) he likes to point out. Never any pressure to try Saphira, and thus, have not. Are they competitive in price to Hostmann Steinberg, which work quite well thankyou! He passed through products by Braden, K&E, and Superior noting the issues of piling and slinging and whatever. I've heard good things about Epple, in fact, that they WERE Saphira at one point. The Heidelberg visitors are right in one sense, they have to treat it as a system problem and the only fingers point to other experts within Heidelberg, where up to now, there are many.
John Lind
Cranberry Township, PA
724-776-4718
John Lind
Cranberry Township, PA
724-776-4718
You will pay MORE for the Saphira products and you will get more LIP service from them then TRUE SERVICE that fixes any problem. Maybe I'm wrong, perhaps everyone is printing Picassos on every impression on every XL105 out there. If you like the LIP, keep impressioning. You will make Heidelberg rich and perhaps put your company eventually out of business. Just a thought.
And to Kurt Wiggins and his comparison of the 'magic box'; isn't it ironic that this magic box is the very entity that is destroying the Planet of Print? Hmmmmmm!
And to Kurt Wiggins and his comparison of the 'magic box'; isn't it ironic that this magic box is the very entity that is destroying the Planet of Print? Hmmmmmm!
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I knew it...
I knew it...
LOL
You're so biter. I knew you wouldn't be able to leave this post alone..
Who cares if Heidelberg gets rich, while we print "Picassos"? Better for everyone but you, I guess. ; )
Speaking from years of personal experience, Heidelberg backs up every bit, of everything they sell. That said, we have had few to no problems with their products.. maybe if you ever get that formulation right - you can stop providing "TRUE SERVICE", and one day get rich.
I knew it...
LOL
You're so biter. I knew you wouldn't be able to leave this post alone..
Who cares if Heidelberg gets rich, while we print "Picassos"? Better for everyone but you, I guess. ; )
Speaking from years of personal experience, Heidelberg backs up every bit, of everything they sell. That said, we have had few to no problems with their products.. maybe if you ever get that formulation right - you can stop providing "TRUE SERVICE", and one day get rich.
Vee,
Heidelberg makes very good presses, no doubt about it. In fact, one of my personal favorites, both web and sheet fed. However Heidelberg does not make good inks, plates, blankets, founts or washes. In fact, you make nuttin but presses. You do make $ though through the fleecing of the printers on the consumable end. Let the consumable EXPERTS make their products to run on your nuts and bolts. Stick to making presses, as I said, you're company is pretty dang good at. If you want to get into consumables buy an available company and learn the EXPERTISE. Don't buy the company for the business they already have. Take a couple of decades and learn about a consumable, and then you will be ready. There are plenty of unemployed consumable EXPERTS out there that can help you truly be SERVICE oriented in this arena. Listen to WISDOM and stop trying to see how much $ you can get to cart to the bank. Be a good responsible animal on this Print Planet and Johann Gutteberg, Alois Senefelder and Ben Franklin will be better able to rest in PEACE.
Heidelberg makes very good presses, no doubt about it. In fact, one of my personal favorites, both web and sheet fed. However Heidelberg does not make good inks, plates, blankets, founts or washes. In fact, you make nuttin but presses. You do make $ though through the fleecing of the printers on the consumable end. Let the consumable EXPERTS make their products to run on your nuts and bolts. Stick to making presses, as I said, you're company is pretty dang good at. If you want to get into consumables buy an available company and learn the EXPERTISE. Don't buy the company for the business they already have. Take a couple of decades and learn about a consumable, and then you will be ready. There are plenty of unemployed consumable EXPERTS out there that can help you truly be SERVICE oriented in this arena. Listen to WISDOM and stop trying to see how much $ you can get to cart to the bank. Be a good responsible animal on this Print Planet and Johann Gutteberg, Alois Senefelder and Ben Franklin will be better able to rest in PEACE.
akiyama_king
Well-known member
I think you need a holiday mate. it looks like you have a personal issue with heidi for some reason. and could you elaborate on how they are fleesing their customers is it because their prices are slightly higher than yours? well i think id rather pay the extra and deal with heidelberg than have to see or speak to your sour face
To All:
I am not sour, not bitter, I am TRUTHFUL. I have nothing against Heidelberg, believe they are a fine company. It's that I just do not agree with them being a middle man for consumable distribution. I have been working in the graphics industry since I was 9 years old. I have at least 20 more years to go, so I will do all I can to IMPROVE the system and try to breakdown the forces that are ruining the industry. My goal is to HELP the Print Planet, and provide as much longevity to it as possible. I have experience and viewpoints that I realize everyone will not agree with, but this EXPERIENCE and how I've seen things change on the Planet to generally a less profitable trade, drives me towards maintaining it through analysis and offered methods for IMPROVEMENT. Sorry for the offense on my part, but their is no defense the way things operate today. It all kind of started back in the late 1980's. I want Print to get back to craftsmanship and know how. Remember our biggest obstacle is that 'magic box'. So I take this 'magic box' and spread the word without ink, so the Prine Planet has the best opportunity to get back into ink. Respectfully.
I am not sour, not bitter, I am TRUTHFUL. I have nothing against Heidelberg, believe they are a fine company. It's that I just do not agree with them being a middle man for consumable distribution. I have been working in the graphics industry since I was 9 years old. I have at least 20 more years to go, so I will do all I can to IMPROVE the system and try to breakdown the forces that are ruining the industry. My goal is to HELP the Print Planet, and provide as much longevity to it as possible. I have experience and viewpoints that I realize everyone will not agree with, but this EXPERIENCE and how I've seen things change on the Planet to generally a less profitable trade, drives me towards maintaining it through analysis and offered methods for IMPROVEMENT. Sorry for the offense on my part, but their is no defense the way things operate today. It all kind of started back in the late 1980's. I want Print to get back to craftsmanship and know how. Remember our biggest obstacle is that 'magic box'. So I take this 'magic box' and spread the word without ink, so the Prine Planet has the best opportunity to get back into ink. Respectfully.
D Ink Man has a point.... actually, I do know from an insider in Germany why Heidelberg got into looking for the "perfect" ink for its XL105, and the reason is that the rollers of the XL 105 are flawed: Their average diameter when you compare them to the rollers of other manufacturers is smaller, therefore, the speed at which they must turn at higher printing speeds is too high, causing most inks out there to "melt" due to high temperature. Check any other non-Heidelberg press out there that runs at 18K per hour, they do not have ink issues whatsoever and the reason is that their inking system has rollers with larger diameter in average... This is something a friend of mine who happens to be an engineer at KBA in Germany told me, I am not making this up.
Ah hah! Very interesting. So the 'melting' as Sir JPK has referred to, is actually the misting that eventuates to the painting of ones XL105 print machine, no matter what oleoresinous material is run through its complex labyrinth of rubber. ?Question? Can this flaw be fixed with the changing of the roller trains dimensions or types or are the XL105 runners doomed to a life of umbrella carrying? Oh, on second thought don't worry about it, D Ink Man will fix it, always does. Again very interesting and we all know what INTEREST leads to. D
Neil Meggitt
Active member
Not wanting to stray away from the question of a press that runs at 18 000 iph but what ink does Goss recommend for the Goss M-600 Folia? This press uses sheetfed inks with a claimed top speed of 30 000 iph. GOSS M-600 Folia
Tis true per claim 30K i.ph. Wowie!
Tis true per claim 30K i.ph. Wowie!
http://www.gossinternational.com/clientuploads/pdf/Datasheets_English/M_600_Folia_ENG_datasheet.pdf
?Question,?
How does it keep the printed work in registration, blanket to blanket printing. I am INTERESTED. Thank you fellow tradesmen.
Tis true per claim 30K i.ph. Wowie!
http://www.gossinternational.com/clientuploads/pdf/Datasheets_English/M_600_Folia_ENG_datasheet.pdf
?Question,?
How does it keep the printed work in registration, blanket to blanket printing. I am INTERESTED. Thank you fellow tradesmen.
Bret Hesler
Well-known member
Probably the same way the heatset M600 registers. It's really a web press with a sheeter, and they replaced the dryer with an anti setoff unit. Very interesting indeed.
Bret
Bob Peterson
Well-known member
Making a sheetfed ink to run at 30,000 iph is not a problem. One only needs to make a modfication to the viscosity to keep it from misting and breaking down in the roller train. Completely feasable.
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