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Yellow ink contamination?

Hello turbotom,


"Time to Spill the Beans" ................


A) Roller Lubrication Paste: A Gelled combine of Anti-skinning/Anti-oxidant Paste.

B) Fundamental: We used Pre-sensitized Plates, other factors contribute to the success - Skill and Expertize.


Regards, Alois
 
Hello turbotom,


"Time to Spill the Beans" ................


A) Roller Lubrication Paste: A Gelled combine of Anti-skinning/Anti-oxidant Paste.

B) Fundamental: We used Pre-sensitized Plates, other factors contribute to the success - Skill and Expertize.


Regards, Alois

I guess the manufacturer of this magical roller lube is going to remain anonymous. I thought the purpose of this forum was to share information Alois???
Either that , or no such paste exists.
 
Hello turotom,


"Oh ye of little faith" !!!!!


The reason I've not named the UK ink maker is the company no longer exists, taken over by one of the large

multi - national Ink Manufacturers.

I'm sure that D-ink man could replicate a Roller Lubrication Paste, are there independent ink makers still in the USA ?

I suggest that the "On press" plate problems you experience emanate from - Chem-free/Low Chem/ DoP , CtP Plates.


e.g. Picture Framing Problems !


Regards, Alois
 
Hello turotom,


"Oh ye of little faith" !!!!!


The reason I've not named the UK ink maker is the company no longer exists, taken over by one of the large

multi - national Ink Manufacturers.

I'm sure that D-ink man could replicate a Roller Lubrication Paste, are there independent ink makers still in the USA ?

I suggest that the "On press" plate problems you experience emanate from - Chem-free/Low Chem/ DoP , CtP Plates.


e.g. Picture Framing Problems !


Regards, Alois

How convenient that the supplier is no longer in business. How bout a stroll down memory lane, where you share the name of the supplier???
 
All right let's formulate.

Roller Lube Paste:
Medium, slight gel linseed offset varnish 48%
Heavy body, low or no voc linseed/soy based varnish 25%
Petrolatum or Fanoline ( Nothing but Vaseline) 25%
Anti-Oxidant (old Favorite EUGENOL- simply oil of cloves) 2%

Your pressroom will smell good and your rollers will hum a precision tune.

D Ink Man
 
I know I’m a little late to the party, but I believe all the suggestions posted here are dealing with the symptoms and not the root cause. If you are getting contamination in the yellow, odds are you are also contaminating m and c as well, though not as noticeable. Here’s what’s happening: your plates are running too dry. Look at your blankets. If you see “picture farming “ outdide the dimensions of the sheet, that is confirmation that you are running too dry. Also, scumming the first few startup sheets is a yellow flag that your water settings are too low. Wet ink from previous units naturally transfers a little to subsequent units, and because there is not enough moisture on the plate to repel the ink, that ink that has traveled from previous units migrates to the plate, ink train, and ultimately fountain. The heavier the coverage, the more noticeable the contamination will be. Someone suggested that no pressman should run ink zones outside the image area on 0. Actually, when properly adjusted, a zero setting still feeds a very light ink film. My suggestions are to make sure your water rollers are running fast enough and metering rollers are not too tight. Check your dampening solution temperature and conductivity. Temps above 70 will usually cause problems. Many modern one-step solutions will also accept additives to help make the water “wetter.” Also, if you are conditioning your incoming water you may need to add hardener, or conditioner. Finally, make sure fans ir air conditioning is not blowing into the print units. Of course, all of this assumes that the rollers and roller settings are in good form.
 
I know I’m a little late to the party, but I believe all the suggestions posted here are dealing with the symptoms and not the root cause. If you are getting contamination in the yellow, odds are you are also contaminating m and c as well, though not as noticeable. Here’s what’s happening: your plates are running too dry. Look at your blankets. If you see “picture farming “ outdide the dimensions of the sheet, that is confirmation that you are running too dry. Also, scumming the first few startup sheets is a yellow flag that your water settings are too low. Wet ink from previous units naturally transfers a little to subsequent units, and because there is not enough moisture on the plate to repel the ink, that ink that has traveled from previous units migrates to the plate, ink train, and ultimately fountain. The heavier the coverage, the more noticeable the contamination will be. Someone suggested that no pressman should run ink zones outside the image area on 0. Actually, when properly adjusted, a zero setting still feeds a very light ink film. My suggestions are to make sure your water rollers are running fast enough and metering rollers are not too tight. Check your dampening solution temperature and conductivity. Temps above 70 will usually cause problems. Many modern one-step solutions will also accept additives to help make the water “wetter.” Also, if you are conditioning your incoming water you may need to add hardener, or conditioner. Finally, make sure fans ir air conditioning is not blowing into the print units. Of course, all of this assumes that the rollers and roller settings are in good form.

I was the guy that suggested that you shouldn't run your ink setting on zero. And you are correct in saying that if the fountain is properly calibrated then a zero setting should feed a small bit of ink. The point I was trying to make, is that some ink needs to feed into inker, even inline with zero coverage in that ink zone. The proper amount of ink to be fed into a non coverage zone can, even on a properly calibrated ink fountain deviate from its zero setting. Ive seen at times quite a bit of ink feed required, to keep the fountains free of feedback ink. Many times I've witnessed a very light area of coverage require much more ink than even a fully seasoned pressman would initially set up for. These are the jobs where I've scratched my head in wonderment as to where all this damn ink is going!!!
 
Ive seen at times quite a bit of ink feed required, to keep the fountains free of feedback ink. Many times I've witnessed a very light area of coverage require much more ink than even a fully seasoned pressman would initially set up for. These are the jobs where I've scratched my head in wonderment as to where all this damn ink is going!!!

And when you stop the press for feeding paper or blanket wash, suddenly all the ink comes back onto paper as somebody accidentally poured ink directly on rollers.
 
That's because the 'fully seasoned pressman' somehow forgot the fundamentals of ink/water balance. Lol.

please share your secret for avoiding this phenomenon on the occasional job, shy of having pre press image large take off bars onto the plates for every job with light coverage??? Unless of course your always running posters or full coverage jobs like packaging. In which case you'd rarely be exposed to the challenges of having to deal with ultra light coverage. Proper ink water balance just about sets itself when your printing gripper to tail ink coverage!!!
 
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Gentlemen,

....... I thought WE set the "Ink/Water Balance " now "Magic is involved "

I also suggest that some investment in "Zonal Dampening Control" would be a good idea ?


Regards, Alois
 
Gentlemen,

....... I thought WE set the "Ink/Water Balance " now "Magic is involved "

I also suggest that some investment in "Zonal Dampening Control" would be a good idea ?


Regards, Alois

no magic involved here Alois. The point I'm making as that ink heavy ink coverage is usually a no brainer when it comes to getting color. As far as water balance that usually follows the ink with a minor adjustment up or down. The point being is that its harder to control ink and water on lighter coverage jobs. Ive found that on heavy coverage a color correction usually shows itself in under 100 sheets where light coverage may require significantly more.
 
Hello turbo,

Yes agreed, ..... but we should understand the Mechanics of the Various Dampening Systems and The Chemistry of Lithography and their Impacts on the Process.

Regards, Alois
 
Coincidently, I have a shop that has no clue about press color calibration but expects me (the ink company) to fix their yellow contamination issue. When running really low densities of the Yellow (Average .90 - .92) on a coated sheet, obviously standard ink film is compromised. It will pick up color when running 300% black builds, getting the ink and unit dirty.

Adding 20% Tint Base and knocking the tack down of the Yellow slightly does indeed help. It forces a greater ink film, reducing ink from back trapping.

I love it when the operator says “It doesn’t happen with the Brand X ink”. The reality is, probably does but based on strength and transfer, it might take longer for that to happen. Vehicle, strength, and transfer of the Yellow all come into play.

That said, service and support from your suppliers are always worth paying a little more when a problem is encountered.
 
I think there is a common misconception among many pressman, that in zones with no ink coverage, or in zones outside of the paper perimeter. ink keys should be shut down to zero ink feed. This thinking is wrong. You need to always feed a little bit of ink. The amount to be determined by the particulars of your press, and the form. If your a pressman that shuts down the fountain completely, outside of the paper perimeter, then I submit that there is migration of ink on other units as well. The yellow run down last will tend to show it the worst because its the lightest color, and most affected by the slightest bit of contamination. The only color that will not become contaminated in such an instance would be the first down ink.
If AFTER trying my suggestion to allow some ink flow into the zero coverage areas, your still faced with contamination, then I would say that D ink man is correct. Your probably either dealing with a yellow ink that is too strongly pigmented, or..... a yellow ink that is too tacky, which often winds up being one and the same, because as an ink film gets thinner, its tack properties increase. In this case D ink man would also be correct ,in saying to add some transparent white to the yellow ink as a test to see if the problem is resolved. I would also agree with him in saying ,that about 20 percent transparent white would be the proper amount. One you've established that this in fact is the problem, then my suggestion would be either turn to your ink supplier for a long term solution as you don't want to have to be altering your inks with every fountain fill.
D ink man is also correct in saying that tech service in many ink companies is very lacking at best. If your fortunate enough to be working with a supplier, that actually knows enough about their product to solve these formulation issues, then I would say that they are worth paying a little more for. One of the problems I see over and over in our industry, is that price is the deciding factor in all buying decisions, to include the hiring of qualified personnel. Any pressman with skills that exceed the level of button pushing should know, or at least be able to figure out what I've just outlined. Unfortunately that is not the case these days because in a companies quest to save money, the tendency has been to do away with formal apprenticeships, and promote press crews right off the broom.
The hiring trend these days to man these software driven presses, seems to be that its easier to train a computer guy to print, than it is to train an already skilled craft driven mentality guy on the software. Imagine the possibilities, hiring managers if you could have both??? Problem is that having a guy capable of both would wind up costing you money over time, as anyone with the sense to do both, would also have the sense to know his or her worth!!!
Hello, Anicolor press does not have ink zones.
 
Coincidently, I have a shop that has no clue about press color calibration but expects me (the ink company) to fix their yellow contamination issue. When running really low densities of the Yellow (Average .90 - .92) on a coated sheet, obviously standard ink film is compromised. It will pick up color when running 300% black builds, getting the ink and unit dirty.
In my experience, .90 +/- is a pretty typical SID for process yellow, on both coated and uncoated substrates. Having to consistently run higher numbers than that usually indicates a weaker pigment content.

While there are different causes and fixes for successive ink contamination (some being mentioned above), I think the most important factor is always going to be - using the correct ink tack(s).
 
Hello, Anicolor press does not have ink zones.
Correct, it’s set up very much like a flexo press with an anilox roller.

You can still control density based on temperature.
In my experience, .90 +/- is a pretty typical SID for process yellow, on both coated and uncoated substrates. Having to consistently run higher numbers than that usually indicates a weaker pigment content.

While there are different causes and fixes for successive ink contamination (some being mentioned above), I think the most important factor is always going to be - using the correct ink tack(s).
That density .90 is actually really low for a gloss coated sheet. That very well maybe the difference in between the devices and the filters on it (Status T, etc.) or even the “cleanliness” of pigment as there’s many different Yellow 13’s ink companies use (different subject).

Of the hundreds of G7 calibrations that I’ve done in both conventional and UV, the Yellow generally falls in at around .98 - 1.08 regardless of the manufacturer. That’s based on required L*a*b* values required to get your traps inline for Red and Green.

Agreed - appropriate ink tacks are paramount to a successful print.
 
Also known as back trapping... To eliminate just do as many others have said, Use a base tac for first color which could be 14,16,18, then just make sure the tack is same to 1 number less for each ink after with yellow being the lowest since it sounds like its the last ink down. I always ran KCMY with tac as follow 14, 12, 10, 9. You can also use tac reducers to play around with tac.
 

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