Anyone using toner based printer for proofing?

[Horseshoe]

I've been lurking for a while and don't see anyone posing the question that I'm looking to answer, so I decided to jump on in. I'm looking at using a digital printer (such as a Xerox 700, or Ricoh C900, or KM6105) to produce a color managed proof for offset printing.

We currently use Canon Ipf5000 inkjet printers, which do a great job of giving us color that we are able to reasonably match on Press. Problem is that we have have capacity issues when we have a large volume of proofs due out on a given day. I know that the machines I've mentioned will handle the volume without batting an eye, but the color accuracy and repeatability is my big concern. Does anyone out there have any experience with this particular application on a toner based digital printer?

 

[Internal_R&D_Analyst]

We will at times use the toner presses to do proofs but only for jobs that will be running on those machines for the actual run and not offset.

However this could be possible if you were to use something like Press Matcher from CGS for color management. I believe GMG has a product that will accomplish the same thing.

 

[JasonM]

When we took the step to a digital press, it was part of our goal to use this as a proofing device. However, we have found that our digital jobs have taken off and with the one device don't have much time on that machine to run many proofs. I would also be interested in knowing what others are doing.

 

[lfelton]

We're now using our 6501 to generate colour accurate proofs on the same press paper that the job will be printed on. These are used mainly in the job bags as a visual check for the press minder. We have the full graphic arts kit etc on the new Fiery (IC-305 from memory) and KM have provided very good training on colour profiling. To get colour accuracy is a fairly long and expensive process.

When it's working properly, it's very good. Your digital operator really needs to know what he or she is doing though and be thoroughly trained. The same goes for your service engineer. Repairing or replacing certain machine components requires some recalibration and configuration resetting. Some of these are "done by eye", which is most unsatisfactory. So you really need people who are 100% on top of it to get good colour accuracy. Having said that, we are producing hundreds of proofs a week and have been pleased with them.

One final point and warning. We have encountered several instances of colour inaccuracy which indicate bugs in the new Fiery controller. KM are suggesting we change to a Creo and we're going to start trialling them side-by-side shortly. However, that does mean starting all over again with profiling!

 

[Craig]

Ditto Ifelton, just a different press. Xerox DC8000AP with a EFI EX8000 Front End.

 

[GordoMac]

Dp700

Dp700

I have found that the new Xerox Digital Press 700 with EFI controller is the 1st mid-range device that can hold neutral grey over long runs on glossy paper. That's something. The colour does not drift of shift compared to the DC260 - no need to drop magenta out of a custom profile to achieve accurate skin tones. I've been in the printing biz since 1986 and have never seen the consistent quality as I see on the 700. Importing output profiles for an offset press actually works - it will emulate.

My 2 cents.

 

[jlind]

I think it's easiest to do with an Indigo. I co-mingle jobs offset and indigo on the same paper all the time, and very few can tell the difference. It's closer than the Epson proof.

John Lind
Cranberry Township, PA
724-776-4718

 

[lfelton]

I think it's easiest to do with an Indigo. I co-mingle jobs offset and indigo on the same paper all the time, and very few can tell the difference. It's closer than the Epson proof.

John Lind
Cranberry Township, PA
724-776-4718

I think that the time consuming issue here is colour gamut on the press vs the digital machine. Most production digital machines appear to have a wider colour gamut than a litho press (your mileage may vary on this one, I don't claim to understand all of the variables affecting colour gamut on press fully). So although your digital machine may be accurately profiled for the target stock, there is an additional "filter" necessary to accurately reflect the achievable colour gamut on the press that you are emulating. This - at least from our experience - is especially true on uncoated stocks. From memory, it takes 10+ sets of plates using the EFI system, so not a small undertaking.

John - I don't mean to infer that you are not profiling to the colour gamut of your target press, just pointing out to the OP that a correctly profiled digital press is not necessarily going to give you colour accurate proofs without some further work.

 

[jbbbarr]

I use an IGEN for blueline purposes from a Prinergy workflow.

 

[ASM]

Toner digital proofs

Toner digital proofs

You should check out the Oce CS665Pro with FOGRA ISO 12647-7 certification. To my knowledge, this is the only toner machine/front-end combination that has been through the rigourous FOGRA Fogra Forschungsgesellschaft Druck e.V. certification process. Note a standard Oce CS665Pro will not achieve proof-validation results, you need the 'Graphic Arts Premuim' package, which is essentially EFI ColorProof XF, plus someone to calibrate and profile it. You will then have a machine that provides very high quality and colour-accurate proofs, magazine mock-ups etc and these can be used to validate ISO12647-2 offset.
For mission-critical contract proofs however, inkjet (like Epsons with GMG) or one of the sublimation systems (like Kodak Approval) will always give the very finest results. But that's all they do and the cost-per-proof can be high. With something like the Oce, you can run production jobs as well.
Hope this helps.

 

[lfelton]

You should check out the Oce CS665Pro with FOGRA ISO 12647-7 certification. To my knowledge, this is the only toner machine/front-end combination that has been through the rigourous FOGRA Fogra Forschungsgesellschaft Druck e.V. certification process. Note a standard Oce CS665Pro will not achieve proof-validation results, you need the 'Graphic Arts Premuim' package, which is essentially EFI ColorProof XF, plus someone to calibrate and profile it. You will then have a machine that provides very high quality and colour-accurate proofs, magazine mock-ups etc and these can be used to validate ISO12647-2 offset.
For mission-critical contract proofs however, inkjet (like Epsons with GMG) or one of the sublimation systems (like Kodak Approval) will always give the very finest results. But that's all they do and the cost-per-proof can be high. With something like the Oce, you can run production jobs as well.
Hope this helps.

Good point ASM. For those of you who don't know, OCE and Konica Minolta have a strategic partnership whereby they resell some of each other's product range. The OCE machine that did the FOGRA certification last year was the older 6500, but essentially the 6501 (I don't know the OCE product number for this) is an improved version of the same engine, so it certainly capable of at least the same standard.

As mentioned earlier, the trick is KEEPING the machine this colour accurate. With no closed loop spectro (this had better be on the 85!) we find frequent calibration with the external spectro keeps it OK. The issue is when you have to change a major component. The basic machine calibration is then done *by eye* (I kid you not), so you need to be very certain that these are done correctly, otherwise you will not print colours accurately.

I'd be interested to know what happens on other machines, i.e. an 8000AP (Craig?), i.e. how do you do the gamma adjust after replacing a major component? I know that on the lower end Xerox machines the answer is simply that they don't do anything and assume that it will be "close enough".

 

[HeinerM]

You should check out the Oce CS665Pro with FOGRA ISO 12647-7 certification. To my knowledge, this is the only toner machine/front-end combination that has been through the rigourous FOGRA Fogra Forschungsgesellschaft Druck e.V. certification process.

ASM, the IS0 12647-7 specifies criteria and tolerances for the certification of Contract Proofing Systems as well as for Contract Proof Creation. It is currently under revision, to include slightly modified criteria (basically a max. deviation of 8 DeltaE instead of 6 for contract proof systems) to accommodate toner based systems. The FograCert 'Validation Printing System' already reflects these modifications. Besides OCE, CGS was one of the first to obtain the new Fogra certification for the combination of ORIS Pressmatcher and several digital printing systems. These currently include the Xerox 700 DCP, Xerox DC 260 and Canon IMAGE PRESS C1. The software integrates seamlessly into all common workflows and controllers, and allows you to calibrate your digital press to standards like GRACoL or Forga 39 within 15 - 20 mins. using a very easy wizard-based process, which does not require any color expertise. The accuracy and repeatability of these Validation Print proofs when compared to offset prints or inkjet proofs is astonishing. For a printer it is a great way to have an inexpensive go at digital printing, and cover at least some of the proofing needs at the same time. It will also allow you to achieve consistent color output on your digital and traditional press. The proof certification software Certified Proof is then used you to check your machine output, based on the Fogra Media Wedge. It is also a good way to detect whether it starts drifting out of the standard and needs a quick recalibration.

 

[Internal_R&D_Analyst]

lfelton

The Oce equivalent of the KM 6501 is the 665.

 

[ASM]

Ifelton - yes Oce 665Pro is OEM of the KM6501. It also achieved Fogra ISO12647-7 certification in Jan 09. Report from a UK magazine here:
Océ's CS665 Pro garners first FograCert certification | printweek.com | Latest Print Industry News, Jobs, Features, Product Reviews, Used Printing and Packaging Machinery

As HeinerM has noted, there are other ways around the proofing-with-toner issue - accurate colour is always dependent on the overall process more so than the output engine. The Oce solution does package it all into a single-source supplier however, and the 'whole enchilada' including substrate, is Fogra certified.

Good luck in your choice - proofing with toner machines is definitely achievable if you follow the process.

 

[Ironside]

I am currently investigating the same option with my vendor. EFI Fiery Standalone Rip and Xerox 700 print engine. We are currently using CREO Integris 1.0 color proofing software and Epson 700 printer, does a great job but print heads are beginning to fail (getting patterns, head cleaning doesn't do the trick). I would probably simply replace the printer if CREO was still supported but KODAK says no go, must buy Matchprint........paying for the same thing twice. What I would like to know is a average delta difference between a toner based proof and my press. I am calibrated to Gracol 7 standards on my press and so I assume if a Xerox 700 with EFI standalone rip can achieve Gracol 7 accurate proof should work right? I don't get a clear explanation from my vendor. Getting frustrated.

 

[GordoMac]

DP700 with EFI RiP

DP700 with EFI RiP

Will conform to Gracol7 standards. Xerox can engage Color Analysts who can go over this with you.

 

[melendeza]

If you are receiving RGB generated files you might want to see Konica Minolta's C65hc.

The KMHC is designed to work in sRGB. The HC expand and shift the color gamut.

 

[Colour_Guy]

I've done some testing with a press sheet from a Speedmaster and proofs on a Xerox 242 and 700. I created a simulation profile for the Speedmaster and a custom output profile for the paper on the Xerox. The average Delta E was 2.4 which is very good.
To get consistent results you will need good processes for calibration and maintenance. Good environmental controls for humidity and temperature will help keep it consistent.
Your local Xerox colour analyst can create the profiles for you.