A look at how offset production can and should work.

[Deleted member 16349]

Here is a link that describes how ESP Colour in the UK has developed their offset printing manufacturing operation. They clearly show that performance improvements are possible but one needs a different mindset.

Print Business: The Master of Speed Finishing

They are continually looking at new ways to remove sources of wasted time and wasted paper out of their operation. It is a good example of how past practice and experience does not lead to future improvement. More is needed. ESP Colour's efforts have forced their suppliers to do what they have not been able to do in the past.

It is really good to see at least one operation in this industry doing the right things or at least trying to do them.

 

[D Ink Man]

Unless this ink is being controlled by a strength control process, there is no ideality.

Each form on a press that changes offers different stresses on the ink in relation to the amount of take off. If you are printing a 28 x 40 sheet and there are 12 sq. inches of coverage that puts a certain stress on the ink. On the flip side if you are printing 1000 sq. inches of coverage on another form, this entails an entirely different atmosphere in combination with the other consumables in the offset process.

Now maybe ESP is printing the same coverage on every job and print form. Doubt it, but don't know. If this were to be the case, the Utopian picture painted in the article could well be true.

So unless you are printing millions upon millions of impressions with the same printed coverage, this is just a bit more than hype.

When an ink company comes out with a system that automatically adjusts ink strength for every job, bases on coverage totals for each K-C-M-Y, get away from this glorification.

With that said, it does sound like ESP is doing quite a good job with what technology is available in these elementary times.

One last thought also, SPEED is not always the best venue in any endeavor.

Remember the old adage, "Haste Makes Waste.

Food for thought offset people and Erik.

D

 

[Ret Heidelberg Instructor]

ESP sounds like they are doing things right, but I couldn't help wondering if they print ad agency work. Committee press approvals involving designers and fussy customers that want to tweak color on press can be night marish time consuming. If they use a WYSIWYG approach to printing and match the proofs using all available tools at their disposal, they probably can bang the jobs off quickly and be very profitable. If they can print high-end packaging such as cosmetics and hair color products with short makeready time they are definitely doing something right.

 

[gordo]

I think that ESP is an example of implementing process control in production - something most offset printers don't understand - as well as a keen understanding of their costs, again something that most printers don't understand. That is what ESP is doing right.
They have also eliminated a key variable - the substrate on which they print. Effectively they are printing the same job everyday. So if they have tight process control and understand their cost structure, they have a good basis upon which to build an effective and efficient print manufacturing process.
They are also extracting and leveraging the value inherent in their vendor's offerings (e.g. Ink optimization, Colorflow, and soon Spotless to eliminate spot colors). These tools have existed for a number of years but few printers have a culture or management structure that enables them to benefit from the available tools.

Best, gordo

 

[D Ink Man]

I think that ESP is an example of implementing process control in production - something most offset printers don't understand - as well as a keen understanding of their costs, again something that most printers don't understand. That is what ESP is doing right.
They have also eliminated a key variable - the substrate on which they print. Effectively they are printing the same job everyday. So if they have tight process control and understand their cost structure, they have a good basis upon which to build an effective and efficient print manufacturing process.
They are also extracting and leveraging the value inherent in their vendor's offerings (e.g. Ink optimization, Colorflow, and soon Spotless to eliminate spot colors). These tools have existed for a number of years but few printers have a culture or management structure that enables them to benefit from the available tools.

Best, gordo

Gordo, and quote> "Effectively they are printing the same job everyday."

REALLY?

You were not listening.

D Ink Man

 

[Deleted member 16349]

I think that ESP is an example of implementing process control in production - something most offset printers don't understand - as well as a keen understanding of their costs, again something that most printers don't understand. That is what ESP is doing right.
They have also eliminated a key variable - the substrate on which they print. Effectively they are printing the same job everyday. So if they have tight process control and understand their cost structure, they have a good basis upon which to build an effective and efficient print manufacturing process.
They are also extracting and leveraging the value inherent in their vendor's offerings (e.g. Ink optimization, Colorflow, and soon Spotless to eliminate spot colors). These tools have existed for a number of years but few printers have a culture or management structure that enables them to benefit from the available tools.

Best, gordo

I don't think they are using only one substrate but only ones they understand. So each job is not the same. At least that is what I think they were saying. Also in some computer simulations my group did twenty years ago, a press with positive ink feed, could go from a high coverage to a low coverage and be within tolerance within 50 impressions. This was possible only if one was printing at the same density targets for both jobs. Standard densities are a critical factor but the differences in coverage were not as critical.

I really like their approach of looking for all potential opportunities. And in particular how things work together. A very strategic view.

High pigmented inks that dry quickly so they can print the other side quickly. I very high effort on colour control by having Inpress Control on all presses to control colour. Thirlby states how important colour control is.

I like their efforts because it is in line with what I have been talking about for a long time. They use the closed loop control approach while I would use the open loop control approach based on specifically controlling ink feed and with better presetting. The aim is the same, which is to get to a consistent condition as soon as possible. I would use UV inks since that has some nice advantages but they seem to be getting what they need with their inks.

Thirlby also states that he thinks they can make even more improvements. I have to agree with that and am so happy to see that someone understands that pushing the limits is what is required.

Why are there no people like that in this region?

 

[gordo]

I don't think they are using only one substrate but only ones they understand. So each job is not the same.

I guess I wasn't clear. I wrote: "They have also eliminated a key variable - the substrate on which they print. Effectively they are printing the same job everyday."

They restrict the choice of substrates they work with: "If customers were free to specify formats or demand different papers, the system would not work. “We [ESP] need to print at 15,000cph or 18,000cph, so do not allow substrates outside our range. If the customer asks for other types of paper we will not quote the job”

The article doesn't indicate the number of substrate choices the customer has - only that it's restricted to those that ESP uses (and knows). If you only print on a select number of substrates then you can optimize your process accordingly. In that context, that's what I meant by "printing the same job everyday".

Why are there no people like that in this region?

There are. One example is Fort Dearborn Company in Chicago. One of their offerings is label printing to grocery chains. In this case they print on a single, standard substrate using a combination of FM screening and spot color simulation using an extended process inkset. Their offset label presswork is aligned to their digital presswork. Jobs can go to either process according to the needs of the individual job. They sell space on press sheets by the square inch, i.e. they gang jobs either for the same CPC or for different CPCs.

Their print manufacturing is highly tuned, standardized, efficient, and effective. There are other printers doing similar things to ESP that I've visited - but they are definitely in the minority. They also tend to be secretive. In the US most gift, credit cards, and hotel key cards are printed this way...but they won't talk about it.

best, gordo

(I assume that this also answers D Ink Man's concerns)

 

[Deleted member 16349]

There are. One example is Fort Dearborn Company in Chicago.

There are other printers doing similar things to ESP that I've visited - but they are definitely in the minority. They also tend to be secretive. In the US most gift, credit cards, and hotel key cards are printed this way...but they won't talk about it.

best, gordo

I am glad to hear that there are more printers like ESP. It is kind of nice that ESP is not so secretive and has provided some guidance.

It is quite possible that secrecy in the industry prevents many people from making comments on forums like this. That could mean that the really interesting things to hear about will not be talked about.

 

[gordo]

I am glad to hear that there are more printers like ESP. It is kind of nice that ESP is not so secretive and has provided some guidance.

It is quite possible that secrecy in the industry prevents many people from making comments on forums like this. That could mean that the really interesting things to hear about will not be talked about.

Damn right. (Am I allowed to write that?)

Best, gordo

 

[D Ink Man]

In the real world of commercial printing, very few, repeat very few have the luxury of using one or a very limited number of paper stocks. So at best, this is a very unique situation.

If the average litho printer were to limit themselves to a limited amount of stocks, they would soon go out of business because print customers generally like to specify what paper will be used to print their intended job.

Both ESP and Fort Dearborn are anamolies as compared to the multitude of printers around the world. They may have found a special niche which they have somewhat capitalized on.

Again, both ESP and Dearborn still face the monster of ever changing coverages, job to job, so their streamlined superficial proclaimation of ecstasy printing is a myth. Hope both of them stockpile their profits so they can invest in R&D to reach the apex of printing lithography. We can than show accelerated interest in what is going on here.

Sometimes you can't see the big picture because you are too blinded by old metodologies and worn out technologies. That is the way we have always done it approach, leads to stagnation and utter boredom.

Get with it!

D Ink Man

 

[Green Printer]

In the real world of commercial printing, very few, repeat very few have the luxury of using one or a very limited number of paper stocks. So at best, this is a very unique situation.

If the average litho printer were to limit themselves to a limited amount of stocks, they would soon go out of business because print customers generally like to specify what paper will be used to print their intended job.

Both ESP and Fort Dearborn are anamolies as compared to the multitude of printers around the world. They may have found a special niche which they have somewhat capitalized on.

Again, both ESP and Dearborn still face the monster of ever changing coverages, job to job, so their streamlined superficial proclaimation of ecstasy printing is a myth. Hope both of them stockpile their profits so they can invest in R&D to reach the apex of printing lithography. We can than show accelerated interest in what is going on here.

Sometimes you can't see the big picture because you are too blinded by old metodologies and worn out technologies. That is the way we have always done it approach, leads to stagnation and utter boredom.

Get with it!

D Ink Man

Do you sell ink to either ESP or Fort Dearborn? Have you ever been in any of their facilities?

 

[Green Printer]

Unless this ink is being controlled by a strength control process, there is no ideality.

Each form on a press that changes offers different stresses on the ink in relation to the amount of take off. If you are printing a 28 x 40 sheet and there are 12 sq. inches of coverage that puts a certain stress on the ink. On the flip side if you are printing 1000 sq. inches of coverage on another form, this entails an entirely different atmosphere in combination with the other consumables in the offset process.

Now maybe ESP is printing the same coverage on every job and print form. Doubt it, but don't know. If this were to be the case, the Utopian picture painted in the article could well be true.

So unless you are printing millions upon millions of impressions with the same printed coverage, this is just a bit more than hype.

When an ink company comes out with a system that automatically adjusts ink strength for every job, bases on coverage totals for each K-C-M-Y, get away from this glorification.

With that said, it does sound like ESP is doing quite a good job with what technology is available in these elementary times.

One last thought also, SPEED is not always the best venue in any endeavor.

Remember the old adage, "Haste Makes Waste.

Food for thought offset people and Erik.

D

Why would you require a strength controll process? I would think that controlling your dot structure and size would accomplish this. If you would constantly be changing your ink strength what ink film thickness would be your target?

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Damn right. (Am I allowed to write that?)

Best, gordo

Gordon, what I also like is not related to technology but to the business of printing.

ESP and most probably the other printers you mention, do not want to sell print to customers that will cost them money.

It is better to send a customer, who will cost you money by asking for special items like other papers, to your competitors. Let your competitors absorb the unprofitable cost of producing something that the customers do not want to fully pay for.

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Each form on a press that changes offers different stresses on the ink in relation to the amount of take off. If you are printing a 28 x 40 sheet and there are 12 sq. inches of coverage that puts a certain stress on the ink. On the flip side if you are printing 1000 sq. inches of coverage on another form, this entails an entirely different atmosphere in combination with the other consumables in the offset process.


D

One could have high coverage on the gear side of the plate and low coverage on the operator side of the same plate. Both conditions at the same time on the same plate.

It does not seem practical and appropriate to change consumables for different coverage.

 

[Disappointed]

Quote "the company reckons to run at 140% capacity on average."

Surely it is not possible to operate 140% over capacity unless at the end of each week you are 40% further behind in turnaround than you were at the start of the week ???

I would have thought the goal for most printers is to be at 95% capacity??

In my own little B3 world, I run at 20 sheet-to-saleable quality all day and hit ISO colour, and I also have to clean up at the end of the day and start with a cold machine every morning, none of the luxuries of a permanently warm press and zero wash-ups

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Tinker Tailor, Soldier - Spy

Tinker Tailor, Soldier - Spy

Gentlemen,

From friends in the industry and my "Moles" -- Esp Colour Printers print speciality, are

UK Football Weekly Programmes using A5 - A4 formats.

Regards, Alois

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Hello fellow Lithographers,

More of my notorious PDFs. which I hope you will find of interest and value !

"Paper Stress and Blanket Adherence"


Regards, Alois

 

[D Ink Man]

Hey three musketeers; Green Printer, Gordo, Erik.

If you believe that the ink stress is the same on a minimum take off job versus a paint job for any or all of the four process colors, K-C-M-Y, no matter what position they print across the width of an printing machine, than I have a bridge I would like to sell you in the proximity of New York City.

Have a great day.

Use what's between your ears. Think!

D Ink Man

 

[Green Printer]

Hey three musketeers; Green Printer, Gordo, Erik.

If you believe that the ink stress is the same on a minimum take off job versus a paint job for any or all of the four process colors, K-C-M-Y, no matter what position they print across the width of an printing machine, than I have a bridge I would like to sell you in the proximity of New York City.

Have a great day.

Use what's between your ears. Think!

D Ink Man

D Ink Man oh wise one please tell us more. I am particularly interested in the shear forces between the blanket and substrate. How do you alter the lubricity of the blanket to reduce the shear forces without affecting ink transfer, trap, dotgain, drying, coating adhesion along with post press folding, cutting, adhesives bonding properties and so on?

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Hey three musketeers; Green Printer, Gordo, Erik.

If you believe that the ink stress is the same on a minimum take off job versus a paint job for any or all of the four process colors, K-C-M-Y, no matter what position they print across the width of an printing machine, than I have a bridge I would like to sell you in the proximity of New York City.

Have a great day.

Use what's between your ears. Think!

D Ink Man

Of course the geometry of the ink on the blanket will affect the total force on the paper.

By the way, stress is not force. Stress = force / area.

The ink sees basically no difference in stress per area of inked surface. As shown in the PDF showing the release of the paper from the blanket, there is a line that goes across the blanket at the point of release. It is the release stresses along the length of that line that applies the total release force to the paper.

Where it is inked, that release force is greater per linear distance of that line than where there is no ink. The release stresses are not related to total coverage but to the length of the inked release line. As the image geometry changes, those release forces will also change.

I agree that differences in the geometry of the ink image can affect distortions in the paper. This seems to be well known and I know some press manufacturers have looked at ways to modify the image dimensions to compensate for this.

(Of course, increasing the rate of release will increase the forces on the paper but I was just trying to discuss the coverage issues.)

I just don't see that it makes too much sense to change inks for these varying image condition unless there is a critical need to do so.