Alternative to Pitstop?

[disbellj]

Re: Alternative to Pitstop?

OneVision's SpeedFlow Check plus two seats of SpeedFlow Edit (unless pricing has changed) was told to me to be the same as one seat of Neo. Now Neo price must have been with trapping, where SpeedFlow doesn't have trapping in the above pricing, but I could get PDF preflighting/checking/some auto-fixing and two PDF editors from OneVision for the price of one PDF editor from Enfocus/EskoArtwork.

Don

 

[disbellj]

Re: Alternative to Pitstop?

stargate mentioned that Neo "lacks some tools as others have said". I have re-read this thread and haven't seen any post other than stargate's that says anything about Neo's lacking anything. Can stargate or someone else please advise me on what Neo is missing?

Also, what's the best PDF trapping software that will trap PDF 1.6 with live transparency?

I look to a future for myself where I use a rip with an Adobe PDF Print Engine where transparency will not have to be flattened (as long as white lines don't appear on plates like can happen now at times and can be seen before plating in the ripped file at close zoom).

Don

 

[disbellj]

Re: Alternative to Pitstop?

But can PitStop Pro be worked in to my existing Webway workflow with Nexus and let me keep the PDF as PDF all the way through the workflow, let me automatically preflight the incoming PDF, automatically fix some errors, and automatically trap and give a preview to my customer over the internet using Webway? I didn't think it would. So for fixing a PDF on the desktop PitStop sounds fine, but if talking about working the preflighting into an automated workflow, then PitStop Server sounds more of a fit, and how does that price compare to, for example, SpeedFlow Check and a couple seats of SpeedFlow Edit? And neither of these does trapping, where Neo does.

Don

 

[martinb]

Re: Alternative to Pitstop?

 

[mattbeals]

Re: Alternative to Pitstop?

If I recall correctly PitStop Server is running at $2499 through the end of Sept. and is normally $2999. Do n, you would need PitStop Server but I think that there is a module for your RIP that you would actually use instead of PitStop Server if you want it integrated into your RIP. The difficulty with SpeedFlow is that it is not (as best as I can remember) a native PDF editor and requires you to work the PDF outside of your workflow.

 

[stargate]

Re: Alternative to Pitstop?

Don,

Pitstop Pro has all those and NEO has no global changes or actions and It lacks conversions to grayscale if I recall it right.

 

[disbellj]

Re: Alternative to Pitstop?

Thanks Matt.

Nexus (at least 7.5 which I use because AWS never fixed proofing problems introduced with Nexus 8 and following) has a preflight that doesn't have enough info given. PitStop plugin (if you want to call it that, or module) has too much info that I don't need or want. Bottom line is that I need a PDF editor and would like to keep my existing investment in Webway and use as much of Nexus as I can.

I've been told by AWS I will have to upgrade my NexusRip to TotalRip in addition to buying Neo, and was told I would need Odystar too, basically replacing my NexusRip and Artpro/NexusEdit softwares, but told this will help keep my existing investment and I don't see how.

I've been told by OneVision that they can work SpeedFlow Check into my existing Webway/Nexus workflow at a fraction of what AWS wants, and still have two seats of SpeedFlow Edit to work on the PDF on my desktop before sending back into Nexus 7.5 (which doesn't allow transparencies and so I would have to export to Nexus trapped already and made into postscript or PDF/X1-a for Nexus to be able to use it (which it would rip it and make pages and links for each page, and I would use the link in Preps and send to Nexus Impo workflow to autoreplace lores links with hires pages, screen, and copy to machine that send 1-bit TIFFs to platesetter).

Don

 

[disbellj]

Re: Alternative to Pitstop?

stargate,

That's something I haven't thought about really. The action lists and Neo not having them is something that doesn't bother me really. I can manually fix most things if not done automatically (which of course some things would be cool to be automated). But I would like to be able to quickly change to grayscale if I needed to or wanted to, and it not be a PITA. Thanks for mentioning this, so I can keep it in mind for another thing I want in a solution.

Don

 

[Lammy]

Re: Alternative to Pitstop?

> {quote:title=mattbeals wrote:}{quote}
> No, Illustrator is not a g*d damned PDF or EPS editor.
>

Seems Illustrator edits the random no brand eps files i get from who know where and who knows what just fine. And in a pinch it's been far easier to save a PDF as and EPS and open it in illustrator.

No it may not be written or sold as a pdf or eps editor, but it does work. It's not what any of us would want if we had a choice. All of us want native acrobat tools that will fix the crap we're given from time to time. We'll settle for something like Pitstop to make due as a close second.

Only question I have is if Illustrator is not an eps or pdf editor then why does the built in "edit object" tool open ummmm. . . lest see. . . . oh yeah illustrator????


oh and since I'm on the rant. . . . . yup I was right. Called it a few years ago. PDF did not save the print industry, all it did is add another program to the list of what we have to pay for and support. But hey, when was the last time ya'll got a freehand file right
__________________
Lammy

EPP Manager • Brass City Printery
OSX 10.4.10 • RAMpage 9.4 • Dynastrip 4.2
EFI Colorproof XF • Avantra 30 • Epson 7600

 

[mattbeals]

Re: Alternative to Pitstop?

Nexus (at least 7.5 which I use because AWS never fixed proofing problems introduced with Nexus 8 and following) has a preflight that doesn't have enough info given. PitStop plugin (if you want to call it that, or module) has too much info that I don't need or want. Bottom line is that I need a PDF editor and would like to keep my existing investment in Webway and use as much of Nexus as I can.

MB: Okay, so we know that the built in module doesn't give enough info. We know that PitStop Pro give you too much information. So get something else then.

I've been told by AWS I will have to upgrade my NexusRip to TotalRip in addition to buying Neo, and was told I would need Odystar too, basically replacing my NexusRip and Artpro/NexusEdit softwares, but told this will help keep my existing investment and I don't see how.

MB: Sounds like more than you want to spend. Don't go that direction then.

I've been told by OneVision that they can work SpeedFlow Check into my existing Webway/Nexus workflow at a fraction of what AWS wants, and still have two seats of SpeedFlow Edit to work on the PDF on my desktop before sending back into Nexus 7.5 (which doesn't allow transparencies and so I would have to export to Nexus trapped already and made into postscript or PDF/X1-a for Nexus to be able to use it (which it would rip it and make pages and links for each page, and I would use the link in Preps and send to Nexus Impo workflow to autoreplace lores links with hires pages, screen, and copy to machine that send 1-bit TIFFs to platesetter).

MB: Sounds like a convoluted way to work but according to what you want, the only way that will work the way you want to work. So buy SpeedFlow then. It's that simple.

 

[mattbeals]

Re: Alternative to Pitstop?

Only question I have is if Illustrator is not an eps or pdf editor then why does the built in "edit object" tool open ummmm. . . lest see. . . . oh yeah illustrator????

MB: Ask Adobe.

 

[[email protected]]

Re: Alternative to Pitstop?

Don Isbell wrote:

"Also, what's the best PDF trapping software that will trap PDF 1.6 with live transparency?

I look to a future for myself where I use a rip with an Adobe PDF Print Engine where transparency will not have to be flattened (as long as white lines don't appear on plates like can happen now at times and can be seen before plating in the ripped file at close zoom)."

Heidelberg's Prinect Printready workflow can trap PDF 1.6 live transparency. Prinect MetaDimension as of version 6.5 has Adobe PDF Print Engine, so your PDF files are never flattened. I am currently using their workflow with version 6.x of MetaDimension (which still uses Adobe CPSI). We generate PDF/X-4 files (PDF 1.6) with live transparency and keep them unflattened. One of the great things about the Prinect workflow is you can choose to trap the PDF files or do In-RIP Trapping. They are the onlvy vendor that I am aware of that can trap PDF files with live transparency and offers in In-RIP trapping with PDF Print Engine.

Abe Hayhurst
Director of Color and Technology
We Do Graphics, Inc.

 

[Lammy]

Re: Alternative to Pitstop?

> {quote:title=mattbeals wrote:}{quote}
> Only question I have is if Illustrator is not an eps or pdf editor then why does the built in "edit object" tool open ummmm. . . lest see. . . . oh yeah illustrator????
>
> MB: Ask Adobe.

That was kind of my point. Hard to say it's not an editor when the manufacturer sets it up to work that way.


Abe, RAMpage has a PDF trap editor that will trap live transparency on unflattened PDF. I think it's really an Adobe engine though. Look into it more but that may be the thing to for in a front end.
__________________
Lammy

EPP Manager • Brass City Printery
OSX 10.4.10 • RAMpage 9.4 • Dynastrip 4.2
EFI Colorproof XF • Avantra 30 • Epson 7600

 

[mattbeals]

Re: Alternative to Pitstop?

Well... Adobe, through Dov Issacs, says it's neither a general PDF or EPS editor. But that it can edit Illustrator PDF's and Illustrator EPS files.

 

[marktonk]

Re: Alternative to Pitstop?

Abe,

Thanks for the post. We also offer Prinect Trap Editor, this is an Acrobat plugin that has been able to trap transparency since January. We can also color manage transparency in Printready or with another Acrobat Plugin, Prinect Color Editor. Prinect Trap Editor hails back to Supertrap, the first true PDF trapping engine; it won a GATF Intertech Award. Yes, this is all done with a native PDF file you could send it to you Aunt and as long as she as Acrobat reader, she can view the PDF with traps.. No Ct/LW with a PDF wrapper or proprietary file format.
And yes, we do also offer In-rip trapping with MetaDimension. Prinect MetaDimension and Prinect Signa Station are both JDF certified. In fact, Heidelberg is the only company that has a rip and imposition solution both certified. See WWW.CIP4.Com, look under the directories tab and then certified products. Thanks again.

Regards,

Mark Tonkovich

Heidelberg USA
Product Manager, CtP and Proofing

Edited by: marktonk on Sep 19, 2007 8:32 PM

 

[Dov Isaacs]

Re: Alternative to Pitstop?

I don't know what +Dov Issacs+ says, but +Dov Isaacs+ says that in fact, Adobe Illustrator is +not+ a general purpose PDF or EPS editor. The only PDF and/or EPS that Illustrator can edit with 100% safety is the PDF or EPS that is saved by the current or earlier version of Illustrator directly via the "save as" function. Anything else may or may not work correctly. For example, Illustrator cannot deal with content that is mixed RGB and CMYK. It will prompt you to choose one or the other. Certain PDF constructs that are not features of Illustrator might be simply tossed by Illustrator.

Having said that, Acrobat does allow for Illustrator edit of vector illustration objects more as a tool of last resort and/or as a means of extracting content. Often it does an excellent job for limited, well-defined tasks. But it requires that the user know what they are doing, the characteristics of the content being edited, and the risks involved.

- Dov

 

[PrepressDog]

Re: Alternative to Pitstop?

Adobe....please make "Acrobat PDF Edit"
Then all would be well. Just a dream.

 

[Greg_Firestone]

Re: Alternative to Pitstop?

Matt wrote +"The difficulty with SpeedFlow is that it is not (as best as I can remember) a native PDF editor and requires you to work the PDF outside of your workflow."+

I suppose it's important to understand the concept of "native PDF edtior". As far as I know, no application actually keeps a PDF as a PDF within the constraints of an application. Wether the file is opened in Acrobat, Pitstop, Speedflow Edit, etc, the file is seen in an application dependent internal structure. So when you open a PDF in Acrobat, it is not an PDF. It is the internal structure that Acrobat uses. If someone knows more info, I'd definitely be interested in knowing.

For me, "native PDF editor" indicates the file format is imported as a PDF and does not go through any intermediate file format. For example, a older rip which would go PDF -> PS -> 1-Bit Tiffs. A native PDF RIP could go directly from PDF --> 1-Bit Tiff.

With Speedflow Edit, the internal structure allows greater functionality that what can be found within a PDF. It allows us to do more with the file such as reflowing text from one page to another. When we write out a file, we write a completely new file instead of re-saving the original. All aspects of the PDF are "touched". This allows us full capabilities of going from one PDF version to another. A user can open a PDF 1.7 with layers and transparencies and if they want a PDF/X-1a 2001 for their workflow, SF Edit will write a brand new clean file according to the specification (PDF 1.3, CMYK, etc.). Neo, for example, can only save out a PDF in the version it came in as.

I guess the biggest question is what truelly defines a native PDF editor.

Regards,
Greg

Systems Engineer
OneVision, Inc.

 

[disbellj]

Re: Alternative to Pitstop?

Greg,

It has been said that pdfInspektor (and it was said it's the only one) sees and fixes font encoding issues so that spacing on output is correct and no squares or dropped out letters happen on output. Well, since Artwork Systems screwed me by never fixing the issue with proofing they caused with their upgrades (after years of being their customer and paying for support), I've had to go back to Nexus 7.5 (which has problems with CID encoding and I've gotten squares where spaces should be, etc.). If I were to get OneVision SpeedFlow Check and SpeedFlow Edit (2 seats), would Check take care of fixing these same problems so that I don't get them in my workflow?

Thanks Greg, in advance.

Don

 

[mattbeals]

Re: Alternative to Pitstop?

I hope that I did not say or give the impression that pdfInspektor can *fix* the font encoding problem. It cannot.

It can *find* the problems.