Any printers happy with Xerox 7002 or 8002?

[stacyg]

We had a new Xerox 7002 installed late December. Still having issues everyday with every job. Xerox is "working on it" but are mainly implying that we must recalibrate and readjust to every job as well as run an extra 100 sheets at the beginning of every job to "warm it up". Also, telling us they can only guarantee quality on Xerox papers.

We're a pretty small shop and some jobs are only 100 sheet runs. Not to mention the expense of Xerox papers.... We like to cut our own big sheets and use too many varieties to limit our customers to that.

Desperately needing advice from printing companies experienced with the 7000 or 8000?

 

[Craig]

No way in hell does it take 100 sheets to "warm up". You tell the service tech to take a hike and get someone who knows what their doing. As for the paper, go ahead and get some "Xerox Brand', if it performs the same they don't have a leg to stand on. If you have a CED you'll see that there are base line papers used, get that paper and see what happens. I will say that some papers do not work well with results that are less than stellar.

Also mention like for like when you talk to them.

 

[stacyg]

Ced

Ced

The CED points us to the "Recommended Materials List" which specifies ONLY Xerox papers.

We've had the most trouble out of coated stocks, most of which have been Carolina. (A good paper which says can be used for offset or digital)

A lot of "tail edge flip" where the bottom edge of the toner gets knocked off before fusing, color inconsistency, and image "shrinkage".

They also say it's because we've used odd sizes. (Our masters cut well to 11.5" x 17.5")

Today's color issue was on a boxed Utopia 12x18" 100# gloss cover. Color started good but then wavered to looking about 20% too light.

 

[kslight]

If you let them, Xerox will give you all kinds of run around if you don't use their paper. Some of it is valid, most of it is not. There are plenty of other papers out there that work FINE on Xerox machines...and most of them produce similar quality. There are some instances where Xerox paper has produced a superior output...but not enough to change over all of our house stocks. Certainly has nothing to do with a 20% color variation while running. We also cut down from parent size on most stocks, and this works fine as long as you have a sharp blade and an accurate cutter.

What I would do, if you haven't already, is document EVERYTHING every time you place a call, and keep a record of your down time. This will help you a lot if you have to take this machine to a "like for like" level. For a 3 month old machine though, you could have a lemon...but I honestly don't know since I've never used that model.

You shouldn't have to run 100 pages every morning to "warm up"...in my experience 15-20 is sufficient...and even then 99% of the time I calibrate cold in the morning, and I have a test pattern I can run and see if I'm way out of line, and if I am, then I will recalibrate until I am where I need to be. But I won't run 60 pages of trash (3 machines) every morning just for Xerox.

It sounds to me like you need to escalate the problem further...having extensive documentation and a nearly new machine should help a lot. Demand that they send out a specialist/analyst if your local technicians can't/won't fix the problem. Get with your sales rep if they won't do that. Get with the service manager in your area. If all else fails, stop paying the bills until they pay attention to the problems at hand.

 

[Craig]

You said you are cutting your own paper, is it grain long or short? Are you sure it's image shrinkage and not the sheet shrinking? Digital sheets tend to have a different moisture level than offset to help compensate for the high fuser temps.

What is the environment like that it's installed, temp and humidity?

I don't run Xerox papers for the most part, my house coated sheet is Futura by New Page. How would the sheet size have anything to do with the color? That's a line of crap.

I just had a run of 5000 12x18 80lb Lynx 4/4 that had little to no visible color shift with 98% coverage on both sides.

 

[stacyg]

We're temp and humidity controlled - very dry right now as it's cold here.

The cut stock is being cut long grain. They mentioned that too and we double checked. Then they said try short grain.

The blades are sharpened often on the knife.

The shrinkage is really weird - up to 1/16" more on one side of the paper than the other. That particular job was on a preprinted master on uncoated stock.

 

[X33]

We're temp and humidity controlled - very dry right now as it's cold here.

The cut stock is being cut long grain. They mentioned that too and we double checked. Then they said try short grain.

The blades are sharpened often on the knife.

The shrinkage is really weird - up to 1/16" more on one side of the paper than the other. That particular job was on a preprinted master on uncoated stock.

Paper definetely makes a lot of difference.

Rule #1 : use paper for digital printing. There's a reason why there are papers for offset and papers for digital printing, THEY ARE DIFFERENT. Try Xerox media, if you experience the same problems with Xerox media, you have a case. Futura Laser is a very good alternative for digital papers.

Rule #2 : use short grain paper. Digital machines need the paper to be short grain because of the way they feed (short edge feeding). It helps the paper travel inside the machine.

Rule #3 : don't put media that has been preprinted. You are passing a sheet of paper that has ink and/or toner on it already through a second imaging/fusing process. Of course something could happen to the paper if it goes through an extra heating process, either shrink, jam, melt, leave residue, etc.

 

[Craig]

Futura IS a Digital Sheet NOT an alternative. It's iGen guaranteed, Indigo certified and NexPress qualified by the Rochester Institute of Technology. FYI Xerox doesn't make paper, only specify how (I even have doubts about that) it should be made.

 

[simpleprint]

I don't think I have anything to add to the troubleshooting process.
Though, I'd like to say this for future purchase consideration:
The very idea that ANY OEM continues to sells Digital Print machines that only runs the paper they suggest is both extraordinarily regrettable and pathetic.
May be redundant to say this, but Digital Print is very much a customer-based field.
Any Service Provider or OEM that continues to act otherwise at any stage of a purchase (before, during and/or after) will be of little to no help to you.

As a vendor saying to your client, "I'm sorry, I can only print on Xerox (or insert other OEM) approved paper" won't get you far.

Whenever you buy a machine, one of the first things to check is it's performance with respect to substrate logistics. If the types of paper listed in the RML of the CED is proprietary consider that a warning. The same goes for consumables, more often than not, these gestures are presented like folded napkins at the dinner table of exclusivity yet unfold in a manner that boxes you in and narrows your options when crunchtime and soulcrush o' clock roll around.

Your sales rep should be out there, or calling you EVERYDAY. EVERY. DAY. To ensure that machine is up and running, that Xerox holds up their end of the deal and both Xerox and your company are satisfied with the exchange of services.
As disheartening as it may get, remember that XEROX made the machine. THEY are to provide solutions. No excuses. They are. Not you.

Aside from the rant, do your endeavor best to document to the minute how "down" you are...how much money you're losing and the haste at which your problems are solved. Not addressed.

As it stands, you have a problem with your business because you have a problem with Xerox's machine. Enough documented information to prove this and you will be recompensated.

 

[Craig]

Well said Simpleprint!!!

 

[simpleprint]

Well said Simpleprint!!!

Craig, I gotta tell ya... YOU are my unsung hero on this board. Ever since I joined your info has been in high regard. My supervisor always wants to read what you have to say. Unbiased, practical experience is hard to find, nowadays.

I'm two posts away from asking the Forum Moderators to implement rules regarding posting that force ALL the Sales Reps lurking on this forum out into the open.
If I want advice from a OEM trained employee, I know where to go.
I want Field Answers and Field Solutions I come here...and that's what I give to the best of my ability, respectfully.

 

[Craig]

I'm truly humbled, but I just try to be honest based on my experience. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[docurley]

I thought the days of Xerox engineers blaming the paper were over but clearly not.

I would advise them to bring in their own stock and show how much better the machine is and as for having to run 100 sheets before you run the job is crap.

I run a 5000 and 8000 on my site and I have never heard such crap plus if that’s what you have to do then demand a credit for the clicks. Some time back Xerox had an issue with contamination in cyan and every now and again we would have to run a solid cyan sheet through the printer to clean it up and they would credit us back has we would keep the copies in a box.

 

[stacyg]

cyan

cyan

Thanks. I'm about to go try a cyan page as that has been the cause of several problems. We're already needing to replace the cyan cortron too. How often will that need to be done?

 

[Craig]

I don't keep track of the clicks between corotrons, but I would guess about 80,000 to 150,000. When I change them I do all 4 at the same time.

As for the blame the paper excuse, unfortunately it's still there, one of my techs. had a full course of humble pie a few months back. He swore up and down it was the paper. I bet he spent the first hour running test sheets on almost every sheet we had in the shop, every time he kept mumbling it's the paper. I pulled out the Xerox brand we keep on hand saying "oh I forgot we had this on the shelf", sure as the sun came up that morning it had the same results. He was pissed to say the least, but I got a good laugh out of it. He has never blamed the paper since.

 

[docurley]

Thanks. I'm about to go try a cyan page as that has been the cause of several problems. We're already needing to replace the cyan cortron too. How often will that need to be done?

Make it a bark blue sheet as this works best and you would only need to do this if you notice white random spots on the print.

The cause is fuser agent/oil contaminating the Dev tank.

 

[ShortRunMagazines]

Is the 7002/8002 using an oiled fuser?

Is the 7002/8002 using an oiled fuser?

I know the 5000, 7000 and the 8000 all used fuser oil yet I can't seem to find if the "02" line is still using the oil or going to the X700 line's oilless toner.

Thanks!

 

[docurley]

The 8002 just looks like a tweeked 8000 and yes it does use oil in the same way the 8000 does and you should have some on the shelf for when it runs out.

Page 68 (9.8)
http://download.support.xerox.com/pub/docs/DC_7002_DC_8002/userdocs/any-os/en_GB/en_ug.pdf

 

[KCJared]

This is my first post and the reason is that I'm just having very similar issues with our Xerox 7002. At this point it seems that XEROX is training their staff to confuse the customer into thinking THEY have a problem. First it's humidity, then it's paper, then it's humidity "inside" the machine. We've had new drums, new drum housings, new developer housings, new motor assemblies for registration issues, a new inline spectrophotometer, etc. We've had analysts out to measure density and humidity. Our Free Flow server can't even hold the jobs to allow us to make changes. They've come to try and install a "patch" but it wouldn't install. Have any of these things been changed on yours? Color consistency is a major issue with our machine. Please let me know, stacyg. Thanks. (end rant)

 

[cmitchprint]

This is why I run off every Xerox rep that happens by my shop. There's no support personnel who knows anything and there's no local support for any Xerox equipment (nearest is Huntsville, AL). We've had stellar support from our Konica Minolta guys and I wanted to cry for my friends who have a digital shop and got a Xerox. It has been nothing but a POS and they miss their Icon/Konica Minolta.

As far as paper goes, we run all of our paper long way in. We've found that it conserves our fuser unit (shorter sheets put lines on the fuser roll and it will show up on solid colors). Since we can cut our own paper, this has not been a problem.

I toured Courtland Paper Mill (now International) and watched them sheet 8.5 x 11 paper off a roll. There was several stations gathering and crating paper. One station had Xerox brand, another had International brand, another was Hammermill while another was generic Quik Copy brand. ALL off the SAME roll! Tell Xerox to kiss it!