Any UV pressmen out there? Help!

[67drake]

Hi, new to this site.
I have been in the business for 22 years,and been a pressman for about 16,or so.
About 9 months ago we get a new UV installed. I just have to ask,is UV printing this problematic for everybody??? My last press,a 105 8 color(conventional printing) ate the work UP! This press is the complete opposite. The problem? Bad ink adhereance and vectoring issues on plastics, severe toning issues on uncoated paper, feedback on the pan rollers,blankets wearing out after 10,00 impressions,rubber ink train rollers only lasting a month or 2. The list goes on and on. Don't get me wrong,I'm not whining,it's just that it is RARE that we can put a job on,make ready,then run. In other words,if I got paid by the sheet,my family would be going hungry right now. It's just kind of frustrating,that's all.
My company has only been running UV for about 3 years now,so there was/is a learning curve I suppose. I am just curious if this is the norm though?

 

[jbeniston]

Regarding your rollers: Are you running with EPDM or Hybrid rubber. (If you have conventional rubber they will be destroyed in short order).
I have found that EPDM lasts well but can become distorted over time especially as far as the ink-ductors are concerned. Hybrid rollers seem to work very well even in a dedicated U.V. environment, they seem to have better dimensional stability than the EPDM.
Do you set your rollers a little lighter than "standard specs"? 0.5mm lighter to the oscillators and the plate might help. Make sure your fountain concentrate and alc replacement chemistry is U.V. compatible.
I have used the conti - air EBONY blanket with some success. However you cannot expect them (or any other brand) to last as long as they do in a conventional environment. After two months or so the vehicle in the ink and the U.V. solvent will cause embossing and render the blankets unusable, I do not know whether or not you can remove the blankets from the press in good time and "rest" them. I think perhaps this might work but have some doubts.
Does your press have any "ink-mist" control on it. Even if you have "blowers" over the ink train I would try to make sure that they are working 100%. U.V. ink always 'mists' like crazy and keeping the fountain solution out of the ink as much as possible will help with the "catch-up" and "scumming"
I have found that the ink water balance is much more difficult when running U.V. and found it helpful to figure out where the minimum ink-water positon actually is.
Are you running interdeck dryer heads? I have found it helpful to cut the blanket packings to just a little outside the sheet size other wise spurious reflections from the dryer heads can dry the ink outside the sheet edges on the blankets and impression cylinders. This eventually leads to dampening and other problems.
Otherwise U.V. is easier than conventional to get along with.
As far as printing on plastic is concerned all I can say is that heat is a problem (for fit)
from unit to unit the plastic becomes distorted by the heat. I found out that U.v. lamps emit large ammounts of I.R. radiation and this is the source of the heat. The lamps can be fitted with special filters to clean out the I.R. emissions and the lamps run cooler as a result. I think this is called "cold U.V."
If you are running 4~6 colours and U.V. coat run an interdeck on the last printing unit to dry the ink before you coat it, plus if you have IR lamps in the delivery then turn one IR lamp on to low power as close to the coater as you can you will find that the smoothness and gloss of the U.V. coating is improved.
Hope this helps

 

[67drake]

Thanks for the reply.
We are running Chameleon rollers right now,but are going to try true UV rollers next time. Chunks of rubber just come off of them,and they swell up bad.
We are on our 3rd type of blanket now. Can't remember the vendor,but they are called "Ruby's" these are the best we've had yet,but we're luckey if we get 3 days out of them. Old blankets we had to change every job or two,because of "memory",or bad print quality on uncoated stocks. I can't believe you are getting 2 months out of yours!
Yes,we have a vacuum/filter system on the units to help with misting,these don't do much.We ended up turning rollers temps down on longer runs,which seemed to help.
It is our SOP to cut packings to sheet size on stock thinner than .012". Also depends on run length.
We do have a external filtering system for our fountain water,this helps keep it clean. We can now change our water every week or 2. Before the aftermarket filter system was installed,every day!
The fit problems on plastic is a major time killer for us. I will run UV lamps with just enough energy to cure the ink. But on longer runs,at about the 15-20K impression point,the built up heat in the press throws the fit out to the point that we have to stop,and get new vectored plates. Most of our plastic jobs are 8 colors,so this is very expensive,and then re-make readying the fit is a production killer. Some of our longer runs need to be vectored again at the 50K mark or so.
Interesting comment about the "cold lamps",I'll have to inquire about these. There is liquid coolent going through our lamps,but I don't know if that is the same as what you mentioned.
Thanks!

One of my own issues is that I was always anal about running a minimum ink/water balance. This helps out alot on plastics. Running paper though,just seems like I have to keep bringing water up to clean up the toning. Where as on a conventional press a few percent increase in water would do the trick,on the UV press it seems more like 15-20%,on paper. It just goes against my grain to do this! This then causes curing issues,feedback on pan rollers,ect. We have tried a few different fountain solutions and doses,but still trying to dial it in.

 

[Albert Noel]

what exactly are the benefits/differences of UV over conventional?
i know nothing, at all, about UV

 

[fireplug55]

Welcome to UV printing, although it should not be all that bad it will be frustrating to the conventional printer. Hopefully the press is equiped with UV materials such as, blankets, rollers and proper chemicals. The inks are more difficult to work with and just about everything you mentioned I have run into at some degree. I ran UV for 15 years and supervised Co-Cure or hybrid for the past 5 years. Hybrid I find even more difficult.
UV - Blankets, I like DYC K-110's, Ink we had great luck with Superior, but also had on site people who knew how to handle ink problems. Etch and 10% Alcohol worked better than the new Etch and Sub's.
Rollers, you can't run conventional rollers they will be destroyed. I am not sure what is on the market for straight UV at this time. We used EPDM rubber, it was OK but not great.
Ken

 

[67drake]

Albert, UV ink cures instantly (or it SHOULD!) under the UV lamps. So printing on plastics and uncoated stocks,there is very little,if any,dry time.
UV gloss coatings on coated paper also gives a very high gloss level,as compared to our aqueous coatings,and dries instantly,so no need to worry about blocking/setoff like you would running a conventional gloss varnish.
As you can see from my posts,it has it's challenges though.
Fireplug55,we do have UV blankets,fountain solutions/sub running. Though the Chameleon rollers are not working out for us. We just put a few new rollers in a couple printing units last week,and are going to see how these hold up. I will have to check if they are EPDM or not,I didn't ask,because I'm still learning here.
We run Toyo ink,and have an in house lab. They have been working with us on our inks,and it seems things are overall getting better,but Toyo is not too crazy about our current fountain solution.
We have changed so many variables,so quickly,that it is hard to keep track of what is working,and what is not. For example,the fountain solution/sub was changed to what we are running now,then only 1 week later we started running a reformulated version of our paper ink. In the meantime,prepress decides to change to a different type of plate! We also changed our blanket supplier about 1 month ago. Then you factor in things like I think fountain solution A ran better,the other two shifts press operators think B ran better. I think only one change at a time,try it out for awhile,then get input from all 3 shifts is the way to go. But in the real world,when the clock is ticking,things are not always done that way.
Just glad to hear that someone else had similar problems. I was just wondering if this is common,or are things just SNAFU at my shop,because I don't really have contact with any other UV printers.
Thanks!

 

[gordo]

There may be help for some of the issues mentioned here:
Enviro Image Solutions Inc.
gordo

 

[67drake]

Thanks Gordo.
Actually the "ruby's" that we are running now we do send back. I'm not sure if they recondition the existing surface,or resurface them all together. We started doing this because of the huge expense of the blankets we go through.
I will point this blanket out to my manager though for price comparisons.

 

[Albert Noel]

finally got to see uv coating first hand today at a trade show. pretty interesting stuff. i like the instant cure.

 

[fireplug55]

Drake67 / SLOW DOWN

Drake67 / SLOW DOWN

Drake67, You have got to slow down or you will have no idea what works and what does not.

I can tell you the DYC K-100 blankets are very good, but like any UV blanket I have used memory will get to them sooner or later.

Toyo ink, you can keep them I have had Zero success with them. Best inks I have used are Sun Chemical and Flint, but was not crazy about flint it was kind of a backup.
It is great you have Toyo working with you, take suggestions from them about the fountain Sol. They need a water that works with their ink and if it does not work it becomes their problem, push that issue at that point.

Ink and water is always an issue, it is a constant battle. Your dot will inprorove with a change to the K-110 blankets. If you are still not happy with the results, prepress can always help.

You will find the more ink you move the eaiser it is to control. Put take off bars on the sheet if you can on any light coverage printing.

Ken, catch you again later have to go.

Albert, UV ink cures instantly (or it SHOULD!) under the UV lamps. So printing on plastics and uncoated stocks,there is very little,if any,dry time.
UV gloss coatings on coated paper also gives a very high gloss level,as compared to our aqueous coatings,and dries instantly,so no need to worry about blocking/setoff like you would running a conventional gloss varnish.
As you can see from my posts,it has it's challenges though.
Fireplug55,we do have UV blankets,fountain solutions/sub running. Though the Chameleon rollers are not working out for us. We just put a few new rollers in a couple printing units last week,and are going to see how these hold up. I will have to check if they are EPDM or not,I didn't ask,because I'm still learning here.
We run Toyo ink,and have an in house lab. They have been working with us on our inks,and it seems things are overall getting better,but Toyo is not too crazy about our current fountain solution.
We have changed so many variables,so quickly,that it is hard to keep track of what is working,and what is not. For example,the fountain solution/sub was changed to what we are running now,then only 1 week later we started running a reformulated version of our paper ink. In the meantime,prepress decides to change to a different type of plate! We also changed our blanket supplier about 1 month ago. Then you factor in things like I think fountain solution A ran better,the other two shifts press operators think B ran better. I think only one change at a time,try it out for awhile,then get input from all 3 shifts is the way to go. But in the real world,when the clock is ticking,things are not always done that way.
Just glad to hear that someone else had similar problems. I was just wondering if this is common,or are things just SNAFU at my shop,because I don't really have contact with any other UV printers.
Thanks!

 

[67drake]

Ken,
Thanks for the input. All the changes are not my idea,that's for sure! I give them my feedback on what works,and what does not.
We had a decent fountain solution running a few months ago,but the managment wants to try to get all the presses,conventional and UV,on the same fountain solution. So they changed it on me. Nothing I can do about it,I've voiced my opinion many times. So has Toyo.
I'm going to get more info on the ideas I've got from you guys when I go in today.
Thanks!

 

[jlind]

67 Drake:
I find it hard to believe that Chameleon rollers are falling apart. Makes me wonder what you are using to clean the rollers. What's the cleaning product? Is it approved for running on your press, with the Heidelberg rubber seals? Please don't get me wrong, I'm not implying that running UV ink should be easy, I'm just curious about what could be making a Chameleon roller fall apart.
John Lind
Cranberry Township PA
724-776-4718

 

[Albert Noel]

Ken,
Thanks for the input. All the changes are not my idea,that's for sure! I give them my feedback on what works,and what does not.
We had a decent fountain solution running a few months ago,but the managment wants to try to get all the presses,conventional and UV,on the same fountain solution. So they changed it on me. Nothing I can do about it,I've voiced my opinion many times. So has Toyo.
I'm going to get more info on the ideas I've got from you guys when I go in today.
Thanks!

what fountain solutions have you tried? currently using?

 

[67drake]

I'll have to write it down,I checked on the fountain solution # today,it is a Prisco 1 step,but now I've forgotten the #. Sorry,we change this stuff so often I lose track! I'll have to get the old solution # also,it was a 2 step.
My "ruby" blankets are made by Phoenix,they are made in Germany.
We use Prisco "E-Cure" as a roller and blanket wash. We are currently testing different wash up solutions in our automatic blanket washer tanks though. The E-cure was swelling the rubber bladders up on the automatic washers so bad,that the bladders were coming out while the press was running! What does that tell you. LOL The test solvents are another Prisco product,I'll have to get the name,and one made by Sapphira (sp?) I was also told that the blanket wash that Heidelberg recommends for our press has too high VOC's for us to use in our shop.
Yes,our Chameleons fall apart. Imangine what a roller looks like if you were to unload a round or two of birdshot into them from about 20 feet. Thats no exaggeration.
I did talk to one of the managers today about the EPDM rollers. We had replaced a few of our rubber rider rollers a while back,on a couple units,with a different type of roller,and these seem to be holding up so far. He informed me today that those ones ARE EPDM. I suggested we please "Get on it".
Do they make EPDM for ink forms too? I hope so,those are the worst,and wear the fastest for us.

 

[67drake]

The fountain solution we are using is Prisco 3452+2. Could not find out the previous # that we switched from.
Our test blanket washes are Saphira EB,and Prisco UV NC.

 

[Albert Noel]

is that a uv specific fountain solution?
if not, i've had very good luck with anchor from fuji. the emerald jrb etch and ars-61 additive.
we dont print uv, but this etch is zero voc's and zero glycol and is compatible with uv. also has calcium control properties.

instead of the ars-61, you could try another additive they have called ars-sv thats formulated for uv. (the ars-61 workes with uv, but i dont think it's as good as the sv)

 

[Freeman A.Gain]

Wow and crap! I just typed out a whole page of mind blowing info. Did a spell check and somehow lost everything. Here's the Coles notes version;
1. Water is key!! A good conductivity area, that we found, was 1100-1900. Do a quick half dump at least if you don't have time for a full, if you get out of this zone. Less water on the start up is ok, scumming with UV on make ready is OK. It won't stick together. Fugi was great working with us, those guys are labs on the go. We use their Anchor etch (Unifount #1104 ?) and sub (ARS-WL)

2. I agree with jlind, chamelion rollers are fantastic. Your wash must have eaten them up. Make sure all of the rubber rollers are chamelion. We received regular water form rollers with our press at first. The wash ate them up in 3 months. Now all is good and they usually last for 16-20 months with proper maintenance. We use a Varn Hydrosolv AIII product for our washes. No success with Saphira UV wash.

3. We too have tested all kinds of blankets. They all suffer from UV burnout or swell to some degree.
Our success to date is with the Day 3000 UV series, ground and buffed. They work well on all substrates from 50lb uncoated text to 24pt chipboard. Even on YUPO, our only real experience with plastic other than the odd gift card job. Keep in mind, UV interdeck lamps kill blankets!

4. Keep a log or journal for tough jobs. Having that reference to look back at, has save many folicals.

I HATED GAS GHOSTING!! UV has given me new appreciation and interest over the last 3 years. I've been where you are now. There are great, proud days and there are hang and shake your head days.
I would have it any other way. Good luck

 

[67drake]

Well after working 2nd shift the last 2 weeks (I usually work 3rd),I got to talk to alot of management that I usually don't get to see.
I found out that our older UV press did run EPDM rollers when it first came in,and that they only lasted 2 1/2 weeks! THAT is why management is so paranoid of going to a EPDM roller. But since then we have pretty much verified that our old UV roller wash (Prisco E-cure) breaks down and swells our rollers. So I am pushing to at least TRY 1 unit with EPDM rollers,and see how they hold up. Pressman and mangment from pressroom and prepress have a meeting Saturday morning to brainstorm our UV problems. So I am going to bring this up then. From what I hear from our mechanic,they are going to try running Acorn rollers,with a higher durometer,as opposed to our Chameleons,in the future. I'm fine with this,if it works,but it could not hurt to have one unit set up with just EPDM,and see how they compare.
Freeman,thanks for the info!
My conductivity with fresh water is around 1500-1600, at the current dosage.
We are going to keep the Chameleons in our 8th unit,as we often run a conventional dull varnish under our UV coatings.
As of late our "Ruby's" seem to be holding up well,since we got the E-cure out of the picture. Not nearly as many blanket problems the last few weeks.
Yes,we keep a log at our press for notes on oddball jobs too. We also started keeping a log sheet at the press for ALL jobs,since our last UV meeting a month or so ago. Just to see what,if an, patterns we can see developing.
Thanks.
Albert,no,this fountain solution is being used on some of our conventional presses also. Most guys running it do NOT like it (as well as me). But managment wants to keep using it for now. Seems like our manager is pretty much pro Prisco. Politics!

 

[Freeman A.Gain]

That is why we have stayed with the chameleons rollers. We do many jobs with Kelstar S.E. varnishes, UV and conventional with UV and AQ coatings. Plus add in PMS's and the occassional metallic. BECAUSE presses now adays are magic machines - just ask our " sure we can print that" salespeople! Just a question though, what are the elusively named "ruby" blankets? Sorry, I havn't heard of Phoniex, and it's killin' me! Sorry again! That's the "passion for print" thing coming out.

 

[67drake]

All I know is that they are made by Phoenix,and are from Germany. We actually get them through Toyo ink somehow. When they wear,we send them back to be reconditioned. I'm pretty much out of the loop on alot of things by working 3rd shift,so I don't know that much about them. I don't know where they are reconditioned,I can't see it being too feasible to be sending them back to Germany!