Bizarre Separation Issue

[jyarrow]

Ok MAC 10.6?
PC RIP Version?
Windows XP, Server? System Specs, RAM, HD space?

Can I assume that you create a PS file then Distill to a PDF?

Mac 10.6.7

PC Rip is Xitron 8.3.1, running on a Vista server, tons of extra HD space, unknown ram

We create the PDFs directly from within Quark, using the Export to PDF feature.

 

[David Milisock]

Mac 10.6.7

PC Rip is Xitron 8.3.1, running on a Vista server, tons of extra HD space, unknown ram

We create the PDFs directly from within Quark, using the Export to PDF feature.

YOu may want to try creating a PS file and Distilling the PS file. Do no tuse X anything.

 

[jyarrow]

Recommended settings?

Recommended settings?

You said do not use X anything ... did you mean don't use any of the PDF-X settings? If not, what settings would you recommend that we use, knowing that our end goal is CTP?

Thanks so much,

Jim Y.

 

[Al Ferrari]

He probably meant don't use Xpress anything, but yet he trusts it to write good postscript.

Al

 

[David Milisock]

You said do not use X anything ... did you mean don't use any of the PDF-X settings? If not, what settings would you recommend that we use, knowing that our end goal is CTP?

Thanks so much,

Jim Y.

I start with Distiller standard press settings and modify them, general tab I use Acrobat 6, images tab I use the resolution setting relevant to my work flow. In the fonts tab I embed all font with NO SUB SETTING, color management is your choice, I use leave color unchanged. I use convert gradients to smooth shades and in the standards tab I change nothing.

The issue my be a combination of your RIP and Quark, you may have to take the transparent objectinbto Corel Photo-PAINT of Photoshop and make it a spot color image then replaceit in the file.

 

[Shawn]

I'd start with changing a few of your PDF export settings to see if that helps. First you mention that you're making PDF X1a out of Quark 8.5. An X1a is going to be pre-flattened.

In my experience Quark does a terrible job of transparency flattening. Try making a PDF with the same settings but turn change the export settings to Export transparency natively. If the Quark transparency flattener is causing the issue, the resulting PDF should be good. If your workflow requires a flattened file you can use the transparency flattener in Acrobat to flatten the file before processing. I've seen much better results using the Adobe flattener.

The second thing to try is to export an unflattened ps out of Quark and then try converting it with Distiller. Just change your Quark prefs to "convert to postscript file for later distilling" in the PDF section. (It probably couldn't hurt to up the Virtual Memory a little in this window as well). Then take the resulting .ps file and run that through Distiller. The built in Quark PDF export sometimes get's a little flaky with certain files. Switching to Distiller can help.

If you want to keep the transparency live this thread has some info on how to edit your Distiller settings to honor live transparency in Quark .ps files.
http://printplanet.com/forums/quark/20355-quark-8-1-native-transparency-pdf-export

Shawn

 

[David Milisock]

I'd start with changing a few of your PDF export settings to see if that helps. First you mention that you're making PDF X1a out of Quark 8.5. An X1a is going to be pre-flattened.

In my experience Quark does a terrible job of transparency flattening. Try making a PDF with the same settings but turn change the export settings to Export transparency natively. If the Quark transparency flattener is causing the issue, the resulting PDF should be good. If your workflow requires a flattened file you can use the transparency flattener in Acrobat to flatten the file before processing. I've seen much better results using the Adobe flattener.

The second thing to try is to export an unflattened ps out of Quark and then try converting it with Distiller. Just change your Quark prefs to "convert to postscript file for later distilling" in the PDF section. (It probably couldn't hurt to up the Virtual Memory a little in this window as well). Then take the resulting .ps file and run that through Distiller. The built in Quark PDF export sometimes get's a little flaky with certain files. Switching to Distiller can help.

If you want to keep the transparency live this thread has some info on how to edit your Distiller settings to honor live transparency in Quark .ps files.
http://printplanet.com/forums/quark/20355-quark-8-1-native-transparency-pdf-export

Shawn

IMO This is worth a good try.

 

[jyarrow]

Tried, but failed

Tried, but failed

Shaun and David:

I applied both of your suggested revisions to no avail. When outputting the job to separations, the same part of the PMS color is kicking to the Cyan plate, with the rest of the color landing on the correct Pantone plate.

To recap what I have done, I have changed the export settings in Quark to save the ouput file for later distilling, set up a watched folder, and set Distiller to watch that folder and process it.

Changes made in Quark:
1. Change to save for later distilling
2. Increased virtual memory for the purpose (from 100 to 1000mb)
3. Set Quark to Ignore Transparency (can't send native when using PDF/X1-a

Changes made in Distiller:
1. Turned subsetting of fonts off
2. Convert gradients to smooth shades was already on
3. Left the standards window alone

Do I need to pitch the PDF X1-a standard completely and just use a custom setup file so that I may pass files through in native form to Distiller so that it may then later flatten the file? Thanks so much for all your help.

Jim Y.

 

[jyarrow]

Tried David's settings, now it's really a no-go

Tried David's settings, now it's really a no-go

I tried David's approach of starting with High Quality Press settings and making the few changes that he suggested. Then I tried Shaun's suggestion of exporting the PDF with native transparency.

When it hits Distiller, it sees the transparency setting turned on, then ejects the file and won't process it because the transparency is there. I can't find any place in Distiller to use the Adobe flattener, and I've been through the settings dialogs several times.

Any help on this would be appreciated as I'm trying to nail down a method to output these files from Quark consistently.

Thanks so much,

Jim Y.

 

[Shawn]

Hi Jim

To get Acrobat to process the transparency natively you need to hand-code the .joboptions settings in a text editor.

The complete instructions are someplace in this thread.
http://printplanet.com/forums/quark/20355-quark-8-1-native-transparency-pdf-export

... but this is probably the part that you're missing. Just change the line that reads "/AllowTransparency false" to "/AllowTransparency true" in a text editor. This setting won't affect any other files that aren't using the PDFMark tags so it's safe to apply it to your general PDF settings.

As far as ditching the X1a settings, you'll need to use your own custom settings. You can make the functional equivalent of a PDF X1a file except that it allows live transparency. It shouldn't really matter as long as it's in your own internal workflow.

Shawn

 

[jyarrow]

More information ... it's not the PDF process

More information ... it's not the PDF process

On a whim, I tried another tactic on this file which has been giving me grief. I used Quark's save as EPS function to save the file as an EPS and threw the generated EPS file at the RIP. On the RIP, the exact same thing happened.

I am getting to feel more and more that this is a FormsX/SecureX problem, and I am going to go to the company that creates it and pressure them to fix it. Going direct to EPS eliminates any PDF involvement.

Jim Y.

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

Just a word of caution very few rips will handle transparency over spot colour objects without converting the objects to process colours.
Even in Illustrator and InDesign if you have a transparent object above an object with spot colours you are askong for trouble. Spot colours need to be above all feathered object (or other objects with transparency) PDFx1 a supports spot colours, but you can never rename or remap colours, the same is true for eps.
Some times you need to think through your design and redo it. Transparency is a breeze as long as you stick to process colours. For SPOT colours you may be better off sticking to OVERPRINT.

Think of this if you have a PMS acting in mutiply or overlay what is it to do? This is why there is a transparency blend space (which you need to set to CMYK or RGB depending on your workflow).
PDFx is the only reliable way to go. but if you must have live transparency stick to PDFx4 at least it is a standard, with which the rip vendors can verify they support or not.

 

[jyarrow]

Oh, when it's all Cyan, things are ducky

Oh, when it's all Cyan, things are ducky

Just one more thing to add to this discussion (I don't remember when it started, very long ago): If I delete the Pantone color and force it to change everything on that (Pantone) plate to Cyan, then I get everything I need just fine on the single Cyan plate. So it's not an issue that the transparency can't work or RIP, it's an issue of kicking things from the plate where it belongs (PMS plate) to a plate where it does not belong (Cyan).

Jim Y.

 

[David Milisock]

I tried David's approach of starting with High Quality Press settings and making the few changes that he suggested. Then I tried Shaun's suggestion of exporting the PDF with native transparency.

When it hits Distiller, it sees the transparency setting turned on, then ejects the file and won't process it because the transparency is there. I can't find any place in Distiller to use the Adobe flattener, and I've been through the settings dialogs several times.

Any help on this would be appreciated as I'm trying to nail down a method to output these files from Quark consistently.

Thanks so much,

Jim Y.

Take the tansparent object into Photoshop and make it a spot color PSD file might work.

What's really weird is I regularly do this in CorelDRAW in Meta and Apogee.

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

@jyarrow If you move all to cyan then you are using transparency and process colours.
This is exactly what i been saying in all my posts spot colours and transparency are a different kettle of fish.

 

[David Milisock]

@jyarrow If you move all to cyan then you are using transparency and process colours.
This is exactly what i been saying in all my posts spot colours and transparency are a different kettle of fish.

Yes but transparency shoul dwork through N color space

 

[rich apollo]

Yes but transparency shoul dwork through N color space

Transparency with spot colors is pretty 'hit and miss'.

 

[David Milisock]

Transparency with spot colors is pretty 'hit and miss'.

I guess, but again you should be able to take it into Corel Photo-PAINT or Photoshop combine the objects with the non-transparent objects and make it a spot color PDF or EPS and place it.

 

[jyarrow]

Just to put this to rest

Just to put this to rest

Just to put this topic to rest, I finally figured out that all of the problems were specific to elements being created by the FormsX plugin, and it is a manufacturing error of that program. They have engineers working on it now.

Jim Y.

 

[David Milisock]

Just to put this topic to rest, I finally figured out that all of the problems were specific to elements being created by the FormsX plugin, and it is a manufacturing error of that program. They have engineers working on it now.

Jim Y.

Thanks for the update, sound logical!