Comparing Prepress Workflows

[TechnaPrint]

We are currently looking to upgrade to a more recent prepress workflow system. We currently have Apogee Prepress 5 and have had some issues with transparencies and spot colors. Now that Adobe CS5 is shipping we are ready to upgrade. We have looked at Heidelberg's Prinect, Fuji's XMF, EsoArtworks Odystar and Xitron's Sierra. They all seem to do pretty much the same thing (some in different ways), and they all have similar features. It is funny how they all claim to be the "Best" and a full partner with Adobe. The Prinect seems to have more options, but it looks dated, not as much animation or color in its GUI.

Does anyone have any feedback to help us narrow it down?

Thanks

 

[seratne]

I would look into why your Apogee Prepress 5 workflow is causing issues for you. As almost all of the others use the same underlying technology from Adobe, you'll be spending big bucks for the same issues. Are you using the "PDF Render" Task Processor, or are you still using the "Render" (CPSI based) one?

I'm running the same version of Apogee 5, and am using the PDF Render TP exclusively and haven't had any issues with spots and transparency.

 

[TechnaPrint]

We are using the PDF Render TP. We have run into issue several times when we have a job (usually a client PDF, but also from our version of InDesign CS4) the has a spot color with a transparency or gradient with a transparent effect.
We had one today that was an InDesign file with a screened spot color background, solid spot color words on top of the background, and an additional layer of the same text, on top of the spot color text, in black with a 25% transparency effect. We printed the file from InDesign to Apogee and made a PDF to send the client, and to print from (same PDF emailed and then dropped in the workflow). The PDF showed up with the 25% black text under the spot colored text (now set to be 75% spot color). I fixed it in Acrobat to be 25% black and solid spot color, but this is just one of many examples of issues we have.
(Sorry I rambled a little)

 

[michaelejahn]

Workflows

Workflows

- We printed the file from InDesign to Apogee and made a PDF to send the client, ....

my first question would be what version of InDesign and what setting for PDF/X export ( I will assume you are NOT printing PostScript and then using Acrobat Distiller or using the Agfa Normalizer ) - it may be the PDF file was not created properly, and while most vendors have reved to the lasted Adobe CPSI, none of them can really fix a badly formed PDF (this is why most vendors licence Enfocus PDF Libs)

I am new here at Compose, and would welcome an opportunity to process that file using our solution.

We are a Harlequin based RIP developer, but never met a spot color or DeviceN image operator we didn't like ( smile )

I guess I need to update my signature file, but if you could post it here or email it to [email protected] - that would be swell !

Michael Jahn
Application Support Specialist
Compose Systems Inc, USA.
4740 Northgate Blvd. Suite 100
Sacramento, CA 95834
Tel: (916) 920-3838 ext 102
Fax: (916) 923-6776
Email: [email protected]
Web: COMPOSE SYSTEM LIMITED

 

[PDL]

First bit of advice - Imagine Big.
Write down on a piece of paper what you think the ultimate prepress workflow software should be able to do for you in your present environment, and where you'd like to be in ten years. Think about your total business plan and how your prepress workflow can be a part of it. If you think your workflow should be able to toast a bagel, write it down. Then ask for it.

Go to those prepress workflow providers and ask them if they can do what you imagine. If they say yes, ask them to show you. If they can show you once, ask them to show you again. If they can't/won't show you what you want they either do not have what it takes, or they are just plain not listening to you. Trust me, it's a buyers market. Before you decide you should be given everything you need to make an informed choice.

Bit two - Ask for solutions, not products.
If you ask a prepress workflow provider for BagelToaster 1.0, chances are that's all they'll show and sell you. But if you ask for a breakfast solution, along with something to send you an email letting you know when it's ready they just may surprise you. Remember a solution is just not the installer CD in a box, it's the support and commitment to your success that the workflow provider should supply you as well.

Bit three -
You're already doing it. Ask for advice, and references. Good luck.

 

[DCurry]

The PDF showed up with the 25% black text under the spot colored text (now set to be 75% spot color). I fixed it in Acrobat to be 25% black and solid spot color

Perhaps I'm reading it wrong, but from your description it sounds like you are getting what I would expect in your PDF. If you have black type at 25% opacity sitting on top of a solid PMS, I would expect it to rip as 25K + 75PMS no matter what workflow you use. How you are telling InDesign to handle Black can also be an issue (InDesign Preferences>Appearance of Black.) If you have the Overprinting of Black Swatch box checked or not. If it is checked, you won't even need to do the Multiply trick I mentioned.

If you want the 25K type to overprint the solid PMS, try setting the type to Multiply. You can predict the output results by using InDesign's Separations Preview to see what it will do.

Also, as mentioned by Michael Jahn, don't print the file - export to unflattened PDF instead.

 

[TechnaPrint]

I had expected the 25% Black to be added to the 100% spot color, but after going back and looking at the file I guess that was the wrong assumption. It was not set to "Multiply" so it wouldn't necessarily add to the color below it. I did some further testing and found that when I print the file to Apogee Prepress the black goes to 25% and the spot color stays 100%, the spot color is now on top of the black and it is set to have a 75% transparency. If I export as a PDF then the black stays on top with its 25% transparency. The end result should be that same, but it is strange that they are different.

 

[TechnaPrint]

How do you decide when you have so many choices that do similar things at similar prices? We had picked ApogeeX in the first place because it was the "Bleeding" edge (Apogeex 1.0) and at the time (6 years ago) there was nothing like it that we found. These days, it seems that every software company, press company and just about everyone else has some kind of prepress solution. We won't ever go with a 1.0 version again. The systems that we have looked at so far all seem to do everything that we could think to ask for.

 

[DCurry]

How do you decide when you have so many choices that do similar things at similar prices?

Ask for a live demo for each workflow you are considering to help you narrow it down. When you've narrowed it down to 2 or 3, then you need to see the workflow in a real-world scenario and talk to the people who are using it day in and day out to get real work out, not the demonstrators from the vendor.

See if the vendor can put you in touch with someone local who is using their product, then call and ask if you can spend some time with their operators watching them work and picking their brains. I've found that an important question to ask is "What do you dislike about the workflow?" Any modern workflow will get the job done -- it is just a matter of how you get there.

Forums like this one are also helpful to get unbiased opinions. Many people here and on b4print.com have experience with several workflows and can offer educated comparisons.

 

[marktonk]

How do you decide when you have so many choices that do similar things at similar prices? We had picked ApogeeX in the first place because it was the "Bleeding" edge (Apogeex 1.0) and at the time (6 years ago) there was nothing like it that we found. These days, it seems that every software company, press company and just about everyone else has some kind of prepress solution. We won't ever go with a 1.0 version again. The systems that we have looked at so far all seem to do everything that we could think to ask for.

Hi TechnaPrint,

I am biased towards Prinect Prepress Manager, but if all prepress systems appear to fulfill your needs, you may want to look beyond prepress integration to help determine all capabilities. Does the system interface with MIS systems? Does the MIS system provide stripping parameters as part of the JDF and does the prepress system utilize them?

All system should have the capability to provide CIP3 data for presetting inks keys on press. This has been done for many years now. We have expanded upon this concept by adding Prinect Pressroom Manager. With a properly equipped system, not only can we preset the ink keys, but on the modern Heidelberg press, we can also preset over 20 other items such as side guides, spray powder length, dryer settings, etc.to further reduce press makeready time. Another differentiation of Prinect is it has one master JDF for the entire workflow, so the prepress information and the press information are written into this common JDF. When a job is completed on press, the presettings and the color oked information is stored back into the JDF. If the press operator has to reprint the job a few months later, they recall the JDF and all of the presetting used are recalled and set, including the color settings as it was at the time of the color ok. We are also are automatically capturing production information from the press such as makeready sheets, good sheets, etc.

With Prinect, Prepress Manager can be a standalone workflow or it can be expanded into a complete shop workflow incorporating MIS, Prepress, Press and Postpress or any parts can be added at anytime. And if some of your existing production tools are not JDF enabled (such as older presses, bindery, etc.), they can still be interface via Data Terminals. The terminals would provide production information to the operators and collect production information back.

Best regards,​

Mark ​