Different spectrophotometers readings

Dario

Well-known member
Hello everyone!

Since different spectrophotometers read slightly different LAB values on the same spot, how can we communicate about a single spot color?
...and how can production made by different suppliers be consistent, if they don't use the same spectrophotometer ?

Or maybe this difference is such a tiny one (so it's overrated)?

Thankyou all!
 
The last study I've seen on this topic was the PIA/GATF one published in 2007 (so things may have changed). It rated spectrophotometer agreement as "sub-par" with results differing as much as Delta E of 9 depending on what was being measured (e.g. inkjet, gloss/matte, coated or not).
 
You have two options IMO:

1.) Agree that the difference is such a tiny one that it is overrated. We are talking about .25 to .50 Delta E. Certify your spectro annually, and buy some ceramic tiles to monitor your spectro over the course of the year to ensure it is staying consistent, if you know you have a good device that sometimes is enough. Also know that temp/humidity of the environment that you are using your spectro in is important when talking about tightening the accuracy beyond that .25/.50. Also note that some spectro's use different geometry which can be an issue.

2.) Create a process and force suppliers to adhere to it. Standardize the geometry / spectrophotometer to use, measurement environment, device certification, and specify the acceptable tolerance that each spectro can differ to ceramic tiles with verification reports being sent to whoever manages the project.

I think unless you are doing automotive interiors or something similar you can assume that the difference is not large enough to worry about.
 
The last study I've seen on this topic was the PIA/GATF one published in 2007 (so things may have changed). It rated spectrophotometer agreement as "sub-par" with results differing as much as Delta E of 9 depending on what was being measured (e.g. inkjet, gloss/matte, coated or not).

I verify two i1 Pro2, 1 Barbeiri LFP, and 1 Xrite eXact to the same tiles and have an agreement of below .5 between all devices. Now that is with a standerdized measurement substrate, so I'm unsure of what that means for different substrates with different surfaces. That creates an interesting point however I can offer some additional anecdotal evidence. I interchange my devices based on where I am in the plant and have yet to see anything jump out at me like a DeltaE or 8 or anything close. I would be shocked to see a difference of 1.
 
I verify two i1 Pro2, 1 Barbeiri LFP, and 1 Xrite eXact to the same tiles and have an agreement of below .5 between all devices. Now that is with a standerdized measurement substrate, so I'm unsure of what that means for different substrates with different surfaces. That creates an interesting point however I can offer some additional anecdotal evidence. I interchange my devices based on where I am in the plant and have yet to see anything jump out at me like a DeltaE or 8 or anything close. I would be shocked to see a difference of 1.

Here's your shock (the left column is the deltaE):

Instruments_zpso0pyvjrv.jpg


This is one slide out of their presentation. They tested a variety of calibrated instruments on a variety of substrates and finishes. It is one thing to measure standard tiles - another to measure actual substrates. At creo/Kodak we had a similar problem with color measurements with instruments that were all the same model and manufacturer calibrated. Not as severe as the above but vexing none the less.
In all fairness I don't know if the same test conducted today would give the same "sub-par" agreement. One hopes that progress has been made.
 
The last study I've seen on this topic was the PIA/GATF one published in 2007 (so things may have changed). It rated spectrophotometer agreement as "sub-par" with results differing as much as Delta E of 9 depending on what was being measured (e.g. inkjet, gloss/matte, coated or not).

Thank you both for your appreciated feedbacks!

Delta E of 9 seems to me so much, like Godon I hope that progress has been made since 2007.
Using two different X-Rite Exact I'm seeing Delta E is 0.65 (this was my question starting point).

I'd like to ask to arossetti: could you perform a test with your all devices on a random print?

OH, and so my question remains: how can outsourced production be really consistent?
Maybe only printed samples can save us all?
 
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Once every now and then I get together with a friend from another company, we go for a beer and take our densis with us and a load of samples and compare the results, recently a guy from a printshop joined so we now are planing densi-partys.
The results show that (except for yellow, my device has a problem with solid yellow) all readings are within +/- 2% to 5%
 
so we now are planing densi-partys. The results show that (except for yellow, my device has a problem with solid yellow) all readings are within +/- 2% to 5%

Sounds like a good joke! :D ...but if this is true it upholds my concerns.
 
First off, make sure the spectros are calibrated and certified, then regularly validated. I have seen dozens of spectros that have never been calibrated (not the device calibration but calibrated by the manufacture to certify the readings.) Then make sure you have a validation plan to check that the spectro is staying within calibration. You can expect a delta E of around .5+/-. This is normal and can even happen with the same spectro on the same spot from reading to reading. The next thing is to make sure the spectros are all reading the same, I'm talking Lumanate (D50, D65), observer angles (10 degree, 2 degree) and then make sure the software is calculating the same tolerancing Delta E CMC, Delta E 2000. All those things make a huge difference in readings. Also make sure you are using the RIGHT kind of spectro, an X-Rite Exact is a single angle and works for flat colors, but if you're dealing with some substrates a Sphere Spectro might be needed or if it's metallics a Multi-angle is needed. We use spectros to manage our Brand colors world wide at over 25 different print vendors and it works.
 
I'd like to ask to arossetti: could you perform a test with your all devices on a random print?

I have a 12647-7 control wedge in front of me from a HP3100 latex printer on a general formulations adhesive vinyl. M1 measurements.

eXact:

Sub: 95.75 -.47 .59
C: 59.56 -43.48 -42.28
M: 50.59 62.52 -2.09
Y: 88.01 1.32 95.75
K: 13.39 -.4 -1.38

i1Pro2 (A)

Sub: 95.58 -.17 .38
C: 56.91 35.87 47.10
M: 50.86 70.08 -.06
Y: 89.65 -4.62 92.94
K: 13.81 -.22 -1.62

DeltaE (I used DeltaE76, seemed most appropriate for this test)

Sub: .40
C: 9.39
M: 7.83
Y: 6.77
K: .5


Color me shocked. I will say I haven't sent the eXact in for recert in over a year. When I have more time today I will run the same test with my other i1Pro2 and maybe the barbieri but positioning that will be a bear.
 
I have a spectropad and a LFPs3 RT. I'll compare them too. I'm quite curious for results.
 
I think you need to remember that taking LAB readings is an imprecise and imperfect method. That said it's a massive improvement on all the other alternatives (a bit like democracy or trial by jury).

I don't believe that measuring one area with two devices proves anything. Take a sheet and measure the same colour in five different places on the sheet (think five of diamonds... Once in each corner and then in the middle). I'd be amazed if anyone gets the same result across the sheet.
 
I think you need to remember that taking LAB readings is an imprecise and imperfect method. That said it's a massive improvement on all the other alternatives (a bit like democracy or trial by jury).

I don't believe that measuring one area with two devices proves anything. Take a sheet and measure the same colour in five different places on the sheet (think five of diamonds... Once in each corner and then in the middle). I'd be amazed if anyone gets the same result across the sheet.

Yeah I just had a control wedge so I couldn't really take multiple point readings and we could look at spectral data but.... I think the whole point of this experiment is to look at the inter-instrument difference between shop floor spectral equipment as it would be used in daily operation. If we did an experiment under laboratory conditions what would that prove? Any industry standard that a shop would use is described by LAB values.
 
I would like some input on an off line scanner .I am looking at Xrite Easytrac vs Techkon spectrodrive .Any pros or cons on both .

RJ
 
I don't believe that measuring one area with two devices proves anything. Take a sheet and measure the same colour in five different places on the sheet (think five of diamonds... Once in each corner and then in the middle). I'd be amazed if anyone gets the same result across the sheet.

The concern raised was about inter-instrument agreement rather than the consistency of an instrument's readings.
 
I think you need to remember that taking LAB readings is an imprecise and imperfect method. That said it's a massive improvement on all the other alternatives (a bit like democracy or trial by jury).

I don't believe that measuring one area with two devices proves anything. Take a sheet and measure the same colour in five different places on the sheet (think five of diamonds... Once in each corner and then in the middle). I'd be amazed if anyone gets the same result across the sheet.

Thank you Tim!
So what else could a (pre)press-operator do, if you say 'taking LAB readings is imprecise', to achieve consistency inside DeltaE≤3?
 
The concern raised was about inter-instrument agreement rather than the consistency of an instrument's readings.

You are correct Gordo. I was wandering off course. The point I was trying to make is that you are in search of unwavering perfection then you might want to consider a career outside of print.

I guess that in print we aim for perfection but make plans for what to do when we miss.... and .... well .... we miss a lot. The trick is to agree on what counts as a miss and what counts as a hit.




Now where can you find an Applied Mathematician and Color Scientist at this time of day?

Well the eminent John Seymour has been posting on this subject about 24 hours ago on the Linkedin ‘Group of Prepress, Print & Color Management Professionals’.

I’ll save him some time and post it here verbatim:

It is not uncommon to see 1 deltaE (ab) of difference between two spectros of different make and model. Even two instruments of the same make and model are likely to differ by half that amount.

The rule of thumb is that the variability of a measurement device be no more than 0.3 times the acceptable tolerance. Thus, if the customer tolerance is 4 deltaE ab, then all the instruments in the supply chain must agree to within 1.2 deltaE ab.

First, use a round-robin check to see if the current agreement is acceptable. Take a bunch of representative samples of the work being printed, and send them around to everyone in the supply chain. Make sure the samples get remeasured at the starting point to make sure that the samples didn't change somewhere along the way.

It is important that the samples be production materials, since agreement is very much dependent on the nature of what is being measured. BCRA (Ceram/Lucideon) tiles are a great QC tool for spectros, but, unless you are only manufacturing very glossy ceramic tiles, the results may be misleading.

I have found that gloss level and OBA content are the two biggest obstacles for inter-instrument agreement.

Second, if the level of agreement is not less than 0.3 times the customer tolerance, then you can <try> to force everyone in the supply chain to use the same make and model instrument. Coca Cola has done this. There is likely to be resistance, of course.

And it may be impossible. Inline (on press) measurement cannot be the same make/model as handheld devices. These devices need to make measurements in microseconds, whereas handheld devices can take a leisurely 100 milliseconds.

If worse comes to worse, you may need to resort to different target values depending on individual devices. (I can easily say that as an armchair quarterback, since I am not the one who has to deal with dealing with multiple target values!) But, the thing is, while different devices may not agree with the absolute L*a*b* values, they pretty much agree on relative changes in color.

I should add... many packaging printers have to deal with making on-press or press side measurements of pre-laminated materials (clear films). The print buyer would like to see target values for the post-lam product (the potato chip bag). A conversion from one to the other is required, but if this is not available, the printer must resort to two sets of target values.
John Seymour
 

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