Digital press for long term reliability

[ZeeBees]

OK, don't flame me if these questions have been asked a million times before.

I've been in competing talks between the konica 6500/6501 and the canon 6000 for several months now, we have the long term leased out with $1 buyout so it would be of benefit for taxes, price per print equaled between the 2 vendors at black$.011 and color at $.055, monthly cost per month is about dead even.
Now, I am just a graphic artist, but I had this wild idea to bring the 60-75 K a year the company spends per year on printing in-house. we manufacture stuff, so the people who operate the machine will not be brain surgically inclined as far as maintenance and operation. Annually, I need to print 300-700 thousand black 11X17 sheets (600K-1400K imprints), about 200-500K color imprints (catalogs mostly, perfect bound). we are getting an inline perfect binder, folder, trimmer, and external hydraulic cutter and right angle folder with whichever option we go for.

My question is, which machine will last the longest with the least effort and long term cost? It is pretty much up to me to decide which is the better brand to go with. And I'd like a solution with at least a 10 year reliable life span.

my thoughts on the konica were that it looked a bit flimsy, but the seller and techie really did a good job pushing it. color and greyscale printing on both were fine, the footprint on either setup is huge, but doable. We are starting to get into VDP and auto-pagination from SQL to indesign, currently with incatalog, but if easycatalog was affordable, we would prefer it. Either of these machines seem capable of large high res indd or pdf file printing, and fast and large enough page ripping as we are expecting to be making lots of changes to customize each catalog printing.
Will also be printing pretty exclusively from Mac Leopard, or windows Xp if I have to.
Any experience with any of these systems would be appreciated.

 

[Craig]

Canon, no question will outlast the KM. Just open the 2 boxes up and see who has the least amount of plastic.

 

[random]

Zeebees and any one else that asks this question ignore Craig. He has never seen inside a c6500 or even used one. Check the comments on other threads you will find I am quite well balanced where as Craig is well, unbalanced.

Now an answer. The perfect binder on the konica does not trim where as the binder on the Canon as I understand has a three edge trim. Also check the size you need to print to. From memory the KM only prints to 311 wide. So this may have made the decision for you.

10 years is a long time in the digital world. 10 years ago tandem engines were quite unique and now thats pretty much all you can get (unless you want a C1). The click on a color machine was about $1.50 so in 10 years from now when everthing is inkjet you will be hurting with a xero machine.

Even at 5 years I doupt you would get that far as in my experience the quality and features of the new engines far exceeds it's predecessors and you will compelled to upgrade.

Anyway I am straying - I don't know alot about the 6000 but read the 7000 threads to get an impression.

 

[lfelton]

(1) you need to re-work your figures on a maximum of 5 years.

(2) you need to work out your total projected click volume over the planned lifetime of your machine, then get a written confirmation that the manufacturer will suport this volume and what the QOS commitments will be.

There's a _lot_ more to it than that, but reading your post, I think these are two main danger areas for you. Get it all in writing (not email).

 

[Craig]

Zeebees and any one else that asks this question ignore Craig. He has never seen inside a c6500 or even used one. Check the comments on other threads you will find I am quite well balanced where as Craig is well, unbalanced.

Now an answer. The perfect binder on the konica does not trim where as the binder on the Canon as I understand has a three edge trim. Also check the size you need to print to. From memory the KM only prints to 311 wide. So this may have made the decision for you.

10 years is a long time in the digital world. 10 years ago tandem engines were quite unique and now thats pretty much all you can get (unless you want a C1). The click on a color machine was about $1.50 so in 10 years from now when everthing is inkjet you will be hurting with a xero machine.

Even at 5 years I doupt you would get that far as in my experience the quality and features of the new engines far exceeds it's predecessors and you will compelled to upgrade.

Anyway I am straying - I don't know alot about the 6000 but read the 7000 threads to get an impression.

Just keep in mind that Random has absolute complete alliance with KM. If it were up to him we would all have fast plastic 6500's. Yes, I have seen the inside of the 6500, looks just like any other office copier.

I didn't see the 10 year life span request, I don't think that will work. After 5 years your maintenance charges will more than likely go through the roof, making it cost prohibitive to even turn it on. Ifelton is correct 5 years and project the volume over the life of that lease/machine. You may find with that volume an Nexpress or iGen may be a better solution.

 

[Dave at clg]

I have the 6500 predecessor, the Bizhub C500. I can tell you that about 4 months left on a 3 year contract, not only has everything been replaced in that machine at least 1 once (I think I am being kind) but it still
runs like cr#p. I did have a chance to run the 6500 once when ours was done. Painful is all I can say. I did not feel there was much difference except for size and color. Good Luck

 

[Mark]

10 years! Good luck!

 

[ZeeBees]

Thanks,
I think I was being too optimistic about projected life span. maybe thinking a 2008 digital printer would be as time tested and reliable as a duplo or ancient Heidelberg. The $1 buyout option had an advantage for tax incentive for this year, but maybe a FMV lease would be more appropriate as it would give the flexibility to upgrade machines every few years, flexibility and ease of use are really what we need.
And yes, I see that there are several corporate people in the forums.

 

[X33]

since you starting looking at this project several months ago, probaly you did not consider the new Xerox 700 Digital Color Press ... take a look at it, just for fun, you won't be dissapointed ...

check this video :

Graphic Arts Online videoFlash

 

[ZeeBees]

since you starting looking at this project several months ago, probaly you did not consider the new Xerox 700 Digital Color Press ... take a look at it, just for fun, you won't be dissapointed ...

check this video :

Graphic Arts Online videoFlash

Nice machine, in-line trifold is nice touch. finishing is the killer for it though. need perfect binding capable of a minimum of 100 pages. Also the price point of xerox is pretty restrictive.

 

[X33]

do you have pricing on the Xerox 700 already? if not, don't guess it. you could get a really good deal at this time, it's the end of the fiscal year for Xerox

 

[random]

Rule of thumb - if the fuser is CRU it isn't a production machine. And for your informaion ZeeBees, rflores is a Xeriod at least I'm honest enough to have my signature state my alliance.

 

[Craig]

Rule of thumb - if the fuser is CRU it isn't a production machine.

Wow I agree!

 

[X33]

random, please educate me : what CRUs do you have other than toner cartridges in the KM 65xx series?

 

[random]

Waste bottle and staples.

 

[X33]

hmmm ... no wonder you made up that "rule of thumb"

between 2 machines in the same segment (light production), I think most people will appreciate the fact of having multiple CRUs (suchs as toners, drum cartridges, corotron wires, waste toner bottles and fusers) to reduce the downtime of the equipment, vs having to wait for service to show up, break apart the machine, replace a component, and put it back together.

just my opinion, and what I've seen in market share results in my area.

 

[random]

Well thats where you might be wrong. Light product usually goes into a place where you have bunch of less mechanically inclined people just trying to get thru there day. For example, of the times that I have been on site where the customer has had a problem with 5000's.

(Phone conversation)

Customer: We have that banding again
Tech: Change the drum
Customer: Were not sure how to do that.
Tech: (explains in detail how to do it)
Customer: Ok I will give it a try.

customer replaces drum fault continues

Customer: we still have the banding
Tech: Change one of the other drums
Customer: Can't you just come out and have look?
Tech: Were pretty busy it won't be for a while
Customer: (picture of frustration) Ok I will try

The customer then trys to replace another drum but has trouble and leaves the drum assy hanging out waiting for the tech to arrive obliviouse to the fact drums are light sensitive and screwing all four drums in the process I would imagine.

Not mention the countless times I have seen a 5000 bed hanging out cause the customer screws up putting a web in.

I just can't see one of your customers going 'Yippie I get to change a drum'. I know they are tiny and don't last long but thats not the customers fault.

Also if I was a light production customer I would be really annoyed that I was paying a higher click charge when you expect me to change all the parts.

 

[X33]

wow random ... KM is losing money by not having you in Sales

I'm wondering where are you located.

 

[FasterMD]

Anyone else get a chuckle whenever the see the words "Digital" and "Reliability" in the same sentence?

 

[Craig]

Anyone else get a chuckle whenever the see the words "Digital" and "Reliability" in the same sentence?

Just like Government Worker