Expanded Gamut

[David Milisock]

I am looking to implement an expanded gamut workflow. Would anyone have any suggestions for first steps? Also any suggestions for background research? Thanks in advance for your help.

Are talking for a press, digital press or ink jet?

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

As far as I understand the thread it is talking about 5 and 6 colour offset. CMYKO, CMYKOB... etc

 

[David Milisock]

As far as I understand the thread it is talking about 5 and 6 colour offset. CMYKO, CMYKOB... etc

The original question had no indication of which workflows which is why I ask.

 

[marktonk]

I was at Heidelberg in Georgia last week and saw some 7 color offset press sheets that were produced using our Multicolor workflow. They looked great. Prinect Profile Tool was used to generate the ICC profile. The color transformation was performed automatically in Prepress Manager via our color management engine, Color Carver. MetaDimension has 7 plate curves for the work. Here is a link to a document on our Multicolor workflow.

Heidelberg - Prinect Color Toolbox

Look to the right for a document name "Guideline for Multicolor Workflow"

Regards,

Mark

 

[David Milisock]

I was at Heidelberg in Georgia last week and saw some 7 color offset press sheets that were produced using our Multicolor workflow. They looked great. Prinect Profile Tool was used to generate the ICC profile. The color transformation was performed automatically in Prepress Manager via our color management engine, Color Carver. MetaDimension has 7 plate curves for the work. Here is a link to a document on our Multicolor workflow.

Heidelberg - Prinect Color Toolbox

Look to the right for a document name "Guideline for Multicolor Workflow"

Regards,

Mark

Makes sense that this would be the most effevctive way to managege the transformations. So I assume that they sent a color managed RGB PDF to the engine corrrect?

 

[rich apollo]

The interesting thing on this front is that while you can make use of n-channel (or multi-color) profiles in Photoshop, you can't use them (nor even the resulting files) in any other Adobe software. There's kind of a kludge work-around you can use, but it IS just a work-around.

And guess what - Adobe isn't to blame. PDF is the "problem". Or better said, PDF is where the limitation is.

To put together a workflow that makes use of more channels, you have to step out of the PDF structure.

 

[David Milisock]

The interesting thing on this front is that while you can make use of n-channel (or multi-color) profiles in Photoshop, you can't use them (nor even the resulting files) in any other Adobe software. There's kind of a kludge work-around you can use, but it IS just a work-around.

And guess what - Adobe isn't to blame. PDF is the "problem". Or better said, PDF is where the limitation is.

To put together a workflow that makes use of more channels, you have to step out of the PDF structure.

>Adobe isn't to blame. PDF is the "problem".
I believe you'll find that Adobe owns PDF so unfortunately they don't support their own software.

 

[Bondi_dan]

Hi David,

Adobe certainly created the PDF format but in recent years it has handed over the IP (Intellectual Property) Rights to the International Standards Organisation (ISO).

The PDF is now ISO 32000 - plus some other variations. So if you need some changes get in touch with your local ISO TC130 Committee.

Regards,

 

[David Milisock]

Hi David,

Adobe certainly created the PDF format but in recent years it has handed over the IP (Intellectual Property) Rights to the International Standards Organisation (ISO).

The PDF is now ISO 32000 - plus some other variations. So if you need some changes get in touch with your local ISO TC130 Committee.

Regards,

Yes but they own it, this is just another example of them not supporting their own applications. Another example ia a 207" AI art board limit and a 200" limit in PDF.

They can make it work if they want.

 

[Bondi_dan]

Hi David,

Adobe do not own the PDF specifications.

New innovations and implementation go through the ISO TC130 Committee process. Anyone can be on these committees and yep, there are some people from Adobe - but they are well out numbered

I have seen innovations like PDF VT from the first meeting - that was a tough meeting - we reviewed line by line each instruction code before it was put to a vote to create set of legal commands for the PDF VT 'Standard / Specification'.

Jump in - the more people involved the easier it is and the better the results.

Regards,

 

[David Milisock]

Hi David,

Adobe do not own the PDF specifications.

New innovations and implementation go through the ISO TC130 Committee process. Anyone can be on these committees and yep, there are some people from Adobe - but they are well out numbered

I have seen innovations like PDF VT from the first meeting - that was a tough meeting - we reviewed line by line each instruction code before it was put to a vote to create set of legal commands for the PDF VT 'Standard / Specification'.

Jump in - the more people involved the easier it is and the better the results.

Regards,

I may take you up PDF is rapidly becaoming a detriment to work flows.

BTW are you aure that it's the not just the reader specification that's in public domain.

 

[Bondi_dan]

Hi David,

Just noticed your comment about whether the Reader is what is in public domain - no it is Adobe's property.

Have a look at this - the ISO specification for PDF 1.7.

ISO 32000-1:2008 - Document management -- Portable document format -- Part 1: PDF 1.7

Adobe's Acrobat reader is now really 'just another application' that will read and render a PDF - hopefully correctly.

The field is wide open to anyone to write/promote PDF reading/rendering software.

Regards,

 

[David Milisock]

Hi David,

Just noticed your comment about whether the Reader is what is in public domain - no it is Adobe's property.

Have a look at this - the ISO specification for PDF 1.7.

ISO 32000-1:2008 - Document management -- Portable document format -- Part 1: PDF 1.7

Adobe's Acrobat reader is now really 'just another application' that will read and render a PDF - hopefully correctly.

The field is wide open to anyone to write/promote PDF reading/rendering software.

Regards,

>Adobe's Acrobat reader is now really 'just another application' that will read and render a PDF - hopefully correctly
Like that's ever going to happen!

 

[Stephen Marsh]

Ant suggestions on Extended Gamut Ink to use to help get closer to colors containing Pantone Purple.
We tried CMYKOGV and CMYKOGB and CMYKOGV substituting Rhodamine for Magenta. The last option helps but still not close enough to get the custoer to sign off on High Chroma Purples.

Kodak have a colour separation tool named "Spotless", it uses a CMYK+spot system to reproduce many different spot colours using an extended gamut process set.

Spotless 5 = CMYK+Orange

Spotless 6 = CMYK+Orange+Purple

Spotless 7 = CMYK+Orange+Purple+Green

They use purple in the 6 and 7 colour system for a good reason!

SPOTLESS Printing Solution - Kodak Graphic Communications Group


Sincerely,

Stephen Marsh

 

[gordo]

Kodak have a colour separation tool named "Spotless", it uses a CMYK+spot system to reproduce many different spot colours using an extended gamut process set.
Spotless 5 = CMYK+Orange
Spotless 6 = CMYK+Orange+Purple
Spotless 7 = CMYK+Orange+Purple+Green

They use purple in the 6 and 7 colour system for a good reason!
Sincerely, Stephen Marsh

A point of clarification. The Spotless extended process colors are not predefined. So, Spotless 5 simply means that there is a fifth process color. It can be any color - blue, green, orange, etc.

Same thing for Spotless 6 and 7. Spotless 6 simply means that there is are six process colors and Spotless 7 means there are seven. Those extra colors can be any color- blue, green, orange, etc.

best, gordo

(formerly Creo/Kodak Spotless product developer and marketing manager)

 

[Stephen Marsh]

Thanks for the clarification Gordo!

My statement was based on the following PDF, which is perhaps a more "formalized" application of "Spotless" in relation to it's specific use in an attempt to cover a wider range of the Pantone gamut, where the extra ink colours are defined - rather than in a "less formal" application where any spot colour could be used to extend the CMYK gamut.

http://graphics.kodak.com/KodakGCG/...creening/Spotless_Printing/SpotlessPoster.pdf

My basic point was that purple was used for a good reason, rather than another colour in an attempt to come close to purple without using purple.


Best,

Stephen Marsh

 

[gordo]

Thanks for the clarification Gordo!
My statement was based on the following PDF, which is perhaps a more "formalized" application of "Spotless" in relation to it's specific use in an attempt to cover a wider range of the Pantone gamut, where the extra ink colours are defined - rather than in a "less formal" application where any spot colour could be used to extend the CMYK gamut.

http://graphics.kodak.com/KodakGCG/...creening/Spotless_Printing/SpotlessPoster.pdf

My basic point was that purple was used for a good reason, rather than another colour in an attempt to come close to purple without using purple.

Best, Stephen Marsh

I see how you could have been mislead.

That poster (the PDF) was intended as a pocket insert in the Spotless product brochure. The choice of an Orange ink for Spotless 5 was completely arbitrary. We could have used a blue or green or red etc. I think this was explained in the brochure.

The choice of the actual hues used in that poster was based on maximizing the gamut to simulate the greatest number of Pantone colors for that particular paper and printshop. If it was a real customer using Spotless in production work then the number of and specific hues would be chosen according to the range of custom spot colors (brand, Pantone, etc.) that the printer was supposed to simulate at their facility on their particular paper stock.

Most printers using Spotless use it as a six color system and some kind of purple, violet, or blue is a popular choice for one of the six color process inks since wet trapping issues tend to limit the range of blues and purples possible using just Cyan and Magenta.

best, gordo

(NB I am not employed by Kodak)

 

[Arshad]

hi gordo,
i have few queries regarding cmykogv/cmykogb,
1) firstly what colors we can use for orange green and blue, i mean any specific pantones,which we can standardize for every job,
2) i am a commercial printer and we are swiftly diversifying to packaging also, will it be a good move to go for this format, as i feel it will give a niche choice to the customer and we will have a upper hand to the other competitors.

pls advice,
regards
arshad.

 

[gordo]

hi gordo,
i have few queries regarding cmykogv/cmykogb,
1) firstly what colors we can use for orange green and blue, i mean any specific pantones,which we can standardize for every job,
2) i am a commercial printer and we are swiftly diversifying to packaging also, will it be a good move to go for this format, as i feel it will give a niche choice to the customer and we will have a upper hand to the other competitors.

Hmmm, you've put me in a difficult position.
In reverse order:

2) The packaging printers who replace spot colors with extended process colors are very, very profitable, and have very loyal customers.

1) There's more to the implementation than just choosing ink colors, but, that being said, I don't provide that level of information for free anymore. Talk to your vendor, contract me someone who has the experience.


Sorry, gordo

 

[Chief_1975]

Here is something I have been wondering which proofing devices could successfully produce an accurate proof for a extended gamut strategy using CMYK+Orange, green and violet ? Presumably a Epson 7900 would be ok for Orange + Green but wouldn't cut it for when Violet is used ?