Fight of the century

[ivacopy]

Xerox is Xerox and thats all

 

[overscan]

Xerox is Xerox and thats all

Well good luck with your 240. If it's anything like our 250 a couple of years down the line the edge to edge variation will be so bad that you have to throw away anything printed on the dodgy half of the machine, and after dozens of engineer visits they'll start quoting 'spec' to you. Of course the sales people never showed us the 'spec' sheet that said that the delta-e from one side of the sheet to the other makes one side red and the other orange, though they did let us add an interesting clause to our contract... something like 'if machine does not perform to same level as new it will be replaced'... thus we now have a 252 turning up in couple of weeks! In my experience Xerox are the same as any large equipment supplier. Unless you manage to get them over a barrel they'll quote their small print and leave you for the wolves, that is unless you want to buy a new machine from them.

 

[Craig]

Their all the same, a little lower than Used Car Salesman (I apologize to any Used Car Salesman). Never believe anything they say and only half of what is in writing!!!! Every manufacture promises the world and delivers a little rubber ball instead, the only difference with Xerox is their little rubber ball is in writing, you just need to ASK to see it first.

 

[lfelton]

surprised by the km8000 positioning

surprised by the km8000 positioning

Well having now had "my expectations set" by KM, I must day that I'm really surprised. Previously I'd understood that the c8000 was set to be a competitor to the x7002/8002, however KM say that it's positioned squarely against the X800/1000, NOT the 7002/8002 and the price reflects that.

I think that's a hell of a gamble for KM. If it's anywhere near as good as it's cracked up to be, they should have had a killer product in the mid production area where Xerox currently dominate. As it is, they are going to have a huge gap in their product range (what's going to fit in between the 6501 and the 8000 when there is 4-6x price difference between them?) and a tough sell going head to head against low end igens and the new 800/1000.

I admit that I previously thought the idea that Xerox brought forward the launch of the 800/1000 in reaction to the c8000 was BS. Shows how much I know!

Interesting times - for KM's sake it had better be one hell of a machine.

 

[UberTech]

No there not.

 

[overscan]

So, has anyone had actual pricing info from KM or is the $80k just a rumour? I need to know whether to bother taking my cheque book with me to ipex

 

[lfelton]

So, has anyone had actual pricing info from KM or is the $80k just a rumour? I need to know whether to bother taking my cheque book with me to ipex

Yes, that's what I just said didn't I? I don't know where you got your $80K figure from, but it's many times too low.

 

[overscan]

Yes, that's what I just said didn't I? I don't know where you got your $80K figure from, but it's many times too low.

Oops somehow managed to missread your post. Looks like I'll be leaving my cheque book at home as the 800/1000 price range is out of our league.

 

[Digital Press Guy]

C8000 video can be seen here

Introducing Konica Minolta's bizhub PRESS C8000 on Vimeo

 

[JayDA]

Yes, that's what I just said didn't I? I don't know where you got your $80K figure from, but it's many times too low.

My rep is telling me otherwise, I'm going to be "non-disclosed" this week, so we'll see. This was from KMBS you heard this?

 

[lfelton]

My rep is telling me otherwise, I'm going to be "non-disclosed" this week, so we'll see. This was from KMBS you heard this?

Yes, from KM direct (we're an existing customer). I'm not under NDA, but I guess until Ipex it's not really fair to blab specific prices that we've been briefed on. In a system 7 configuration (i.e. basic, no finishing) and without the new de-waver, you are looking at much closer to the X800 price than the $80K price. At least that's here in Yurp. KM were very clear that it was an X800/1000 competitor not a 7002/8002 competitor.

 

[mical]

I was quoted a non binding $80,000.00 for the C8000 by my dealer when I pressed him for a price. I have a meeting with KM and the dealer later this week and will try to get more info.

 

[geoman]

Mical, I'll give you 80K, get one for me as well.

 

[mical]

Km c8000

Km c8000

I was told the list price for the engine by itself will be $129,000.00. I was also told the machine will begin shipping in August. I don't think $80,000.00 will get you a new machine but with a little negotiating $100,000.00 to $110,000.00 wil most likely get you the new engine.

 

[Digital Press Guy]

I was told the list price for the engine by itself will be $129,000.00. I was also told the machine will begin shipping in August. I don't think $80,000.00 will get you a new machine but with a little negotiating $100,000.00 to $110,000.00 wil most likely get you the new engine.

The list price has less to do with the actual selling price. It has more to do with the loan to value ratio used by lease companies to determine how much they will allow for trade ins etc. Typically a lease company will allow a buyer to finance up to 125% of the list price. Since the equipment is generally heavily discounted the difference helps with the early buyout of the previous lease. Then again, early buyouts are a whole different subject.

I had heard from my KM contacts that the C8000 would be priced in the low to mid $100s fully configured. A list price of $129K for the engine would put the street price for an entire system in that range.

I also understand that they are showing the C8000 at an event in Houston on the 20th. I'm not sure if they will announce pricing.

 

[thomasc12]

@digital press guy, thats absolutely right. List and streetprices are the key to buy out older installation out of lease contracts. Its seem that you have expierence on this?! Signed one of those contracts or sold one of this ;-)

The game KM vs. XEROX is the fight underdog vs. marketprimus, but time is changing. A lot of customers are happy with the KM solutions. Anyway its good for the industry and the customers to have the choice out of so many vendors that supplies the market with digital printing equipment!

The fight is against the offset. Only 5% of the WW printvolume shifted to digtial, and we are a proud and happy branch!

TC

 

[Digital Press Guy]

@digital press guy, thats absolutely right. List and streetprices are the key to buy out older installation out of lease contracts. Its seem that you have expierence on this?! Signed one of those contracts or sold one of this ;-)

The game KM vs. XEROX is the fight underdog vs. marketprimus, but time is changing. A lot of customers are happy with the KM solutions. Anyway its good for the industry and the customers to have the choice out of so many vendors that supplies the market with digital printing equipment!

The fight is against the offset. Only 5% of the WW printvolume shifted to digtial, and we are a proud and happy branch!

TC

thomsc12... I will confess to having sold KM gear into the commercial print world for a number of years.

The views and opinions expressed on this thread and others as to hardware preferences can be passionate. Any validity to one view or other aside, it would be hard not to agree that the price point KM is putting on their production not driving down hardware pricing overall.

Digital imaging is not a fight against offset. As digital output quality improves the two technologies will merge even more than they already have. Incorporating personalization through variable data print solutions is only one example of how the two technologies and support each other in a hybred workflow.

Being an old Offset Guy before I became a Digital Press Guy these are exciting times.

 

[thomasc12]

Yes, I agree - mostly

But what are the innovation on offset in the last 5years?
- OK faster setup of the presses
- OK new sreening
- OK new CTP and relevant workflow
- HEIDELBERG Anicolour

But end of the day a old fashioned technology with improvements of the pain points of this technology.

I had a customer that told me the copiers are in my printingroom - he pointed with his finger to an speedmaster - perfect copies in warpspeed - nothing more!

greetings from Austria - TC

 

[Digital Press Guy]

Yes, I agree - mostly

But what are the innovation on offset in the last 5years?
- OK faster setup of the presses
- OK new sreening
- OK new CTP and relevant workflow
- HEIDELBERG Anicolour

But end of the day a old fashioned technology with improvements of the pain points of this technology.

I had a customer that told me the copiers are in my printingroom - he pointed with his finger to an speedmaster - perfect copies in warpspeed - nothing more!

greetings from Austria - TC

Perfect copies in warp speed...! I like that one.

I think you would need to look no further than Heidelberg to know the direction of print in the 21st century.

Greetings from California

 

[geoman]

Both Lithography and Xerography are "old" technologies, known to the ancients but comercialised by modern man and modern society's need for speed, speed and more speed.