Hostmann-Steiberg Inks

[Lukew]

Hostmann Steinberg= GREAT INKS!!!

So they have gone from, Hostmann having issues to edit post two years later - great ink.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Hostmanns made in India isn't it. Along with a host of other brands that are looking at cutting cost.

 

[ymckman]

They are made in India and I believe they are now producing in Canada. We just had a batch of UV inks come in from Canada which is suppose to be the "same formula" but have had nothing but issues with it. We are running an 835 series UV with succuess. At our old shop we ran Reflecta on our KBA Rapida.

 

[ymckman]

As for GREAT....i would not call them that. As of late they seem to take feedback with deaf ears. We tell them (tech and sales) what we see and what we want to see changed and the next time they come in we tell them the same thing and they act surprised. "Ooh I didn't know that was an issue" type response. Just my 2 cents!

 

[Dan Roll]

I have always found the code words "same formula" when uttered by an ink company to mean "totally different ingredients", not necessarily bad, but not necessarily good either......

 

[GazKL440]

Lately we've been really struggling on the magenta deck of our 40" with what was seemingly a water control issue. The colour would stay stable whilst the press was cold but the longer you ran for the worse it would get, and by end of shift the metering roller was absolutely filthy. I'm currently working permanent afternoon shift so would spend most of my shift chasing the water up and down in a desperate (losing) battle for consistency.

After dumping and cleaning the entire fount system several times to ensure chemistry was not the problem, I went through the entire deck to eliminate a mechanical issue. Aside from a few minor tweaks in the dampers and finding an oscillator only touching one end, everything was pretty good (admittedly the roller train is a bit long in the tooth but they're in pretty good condition). The result?? Perhaps a 1% improvement.

So the next step (with chemicals and mechanical issues eliminated) is throw another ink at it and see what happens. I found a random canister of Toyo (at least it had Toyo on the box, canister was unlabeled!!) scraped out the duct and re-filled it.

Result??

Bingo!!!

Was able to pull roughly 10% out of the profile whilst easily maintaining colour, over the next 30,000 runs it stayed perfectly stable without any chasing required, and the metering roller actually cleaned up... Massive improvement, and less than 1kg of ink was used as opposed to >2kgs with the Hostmann Steinberg ink over the same amount of runs during the previous shift I'd run.

So fresh solution and properly set rollers made little to no difference whereas a different ink made a dramatic improvement. Conclusion? I need to convince my boss to change inks. Hopefully he decides that paying a touch more for ink will result in better results every time. Somehow I doubt it but you never know

 

[mazengh]

negotiate

negotiate

So fresh solution and properly set rollers made little to no difference whereas a different ink made a dramatic improvement. Conclusion? I need to convince my boss to change inks. Hopefully he decides that paying a touch more for ink will result in better results every time. Somehow I doubt it but you never know

you don't necessarily have to pay more... you can negotiate and get a better deal... contact several companies and have them send you their series...

 

[Cornishpastythighs]

Gaz, now that you have come to the conclusion that it is the Magneta ink that is the issue have you not given H&S a chance to observe the results and then go away and come up with a corrective action? Changing ink companies just beacuse one ink doesnt work as well as it once did is a huge deal and I find that all ink companies will have a 'problem' ink once and awhile, I believe its how your ink company steps up and supports you when you have an issue thats important. The ink ran ok once as you say its a problem that's developed lately. Just my opinion. If they have no response or dont care about your issue then your correct its time to look around and do some ink trials.

 

[D Ink Man]

The instability in density control is caused by the inks inability to form an effective micro emulsion. The lighter the coverage, the more fluctuation you will encounter.

The best offset sheet fed process ink series on the market today, is TOYO Hyplus. You will pay a little more, but you will get a whole lot more. They come in two tack ranges, have good breadth as far as the substrates they can run on (some synthetics).

Additionally they are ultra low in petroleum solvents, believe less than 1%, so they certainly qualify as a contemporary, qualified environmentally green product line. They accept most post press finishes, believe are laser safe and are UV and aqueous coatable See their website for more specific details of their process offerings.

Hope this helps. Get some bang for your buck.

D

 

[Deleted member 16349]

The instability in density control is caused by the inks inability to form an effective micro emulsion. The lighter the coverage, the more fluctuation you will encounter.


D

Mr. D, I can't let this go by without some clarification.

Can you describe why the micro emulsion would have an affect on density control?

What in your view are the cause and affect issues?

Thanks.

 

[Lukew]

The instability in density control is caused by the inks inability to form an effective micro emulsion. The lighter the coverage, the more fluctuation you will encounter.

The best offset sheet fed process ink series on the market today, is TOYO Hyplus. You will pay a little more, but you will get a whole lot more. They come in two tack ranges, have good breadth as far as the substrates they can run on (some synthetics).

Additionally they are ultra low in petroleum solvents, believe less than 1%, so they certainly qualify as a contemporary, qualified environmentally green product line. They accept most post press finishes, believe are laser safe and are UV and aqueous coatable See their website for more specific details of their process offerings.

Hope this helps. Get some bang for your buck.

D

Bingo Ink man.

Toyo hyplus 100 is what we use. Since we run polyester plates & also have a gripper bar fit issue we use the low tack version, found it to come up to colour faster and remain consistent better then the medium tack.
Being low tack the dot isn't as sharp as the medium tack but its sharp enough.
The only issue is this inks set has a $3 - $5 per Kg premium over most other ink sets. But as soon as you factor in the trouble free running the cost difference is a mute argument.

 

[GazKL440]

Mazengh: I will talk with my boss about it and see what we can do: aside from the instant improvement in print quality and consistency, I noted a large increase in mileage too: it appeared (in a highly un-scientific, seat of the pants test if I must admit!!) to use much less ink over the print run at the time and I was able to show my boss the profile/sweep reductions (call it 10% across the board) I was able to achieve via the console "setting check" button. Honestly, it's up to him: but I hope he sees reason and looks less at the "now" of the economics involved and more at the gains made in quality/consistency and lower usage in the long run.

Cornishpastythighs (your username cracks me up lol!!): I'll try to talk with the ink rep and see if he can help: we used to run the "Impression" series H/S inks and it was actually pretty good, since switching to running guns/canisters they tell us that "only Perfexion is available in canisters", and it's a very light bodied ink in my opinion. Unfortunately us printers on the floor tend to get less than useful responses from the ink reps such as "I'll look into it" (ie nothing's done) or "you're the only shop we supply that's having this problem" (ie nothing's done!!) or "switch to our chemistry and all will be well" (ignore your steels and metering rollers inking up instantly!!). We use a large amount of ink so I won't accept these less than helpfull suggestions from him.... but he only has to convince the boss not me and problem remains

Erik and D: without having more than a layman's take on micro-emulsion (I've learnt most of what I know on these types of subjects by reading posts of the learned gents on here to be honest!) I'm guessing that this refers to the ink and roller train's ability to "carry" water. I'm guessing (apologies for less than scientific language-I'm a printer not a rocket surgeon hehe!) that at a certain level of water vs ink on the rollers they become miscible, and that at this point the ink begins to break down and this affects the ability of the ink to transfer effectively to your printed medium. Or.... does the ink then lose its reflective qualities with the result being a "weak" print? We simply call it "wash-out" and scramble to correct the situation by reducing water or adding ink. It's not ideal and visual colour fluctuations are the unwanted result.

D: with regards to coverage you're spot on: the lower the ink feed in a given area the more likely we are to encounter this problem, and both the onset and visual change are far more dramatic! Running a solid you can observe the visible changes over a few hundred sheets, on a screen you get streaks that "walk" across the sheet and on the current job I'm running (red text reversed out of black background) you can flip through 50 sheets and see the text go from red to orange to yellow and back again... Extremely frustrating!!

At the end of the day which brand of ink we use does not worry me: it's the results that count. Minimizing the headaches involved in keeping my print stable and consistent in a less than ideal print environment is all I'm after. In my opinion cutting corners and costs by buying products on a dollar value rather than an effectiveness value is not the best way to operate: the term "false economy" best sums it up and now that this issue has become untenable hopefully the production crew can work with the boss to find an economically viable and more productive solution. We will see!!

 

[GazKL440]

Bingo Ink man.

Toyo hyplus 100 is what we use. Since we run polyester plates & also have a gripper bar fit issue we use the low tack version, found it to come up to colour faster and remain consistent better then the medium tack.
Being low tack the dot isn't as sharp as the medium tack but its sharp enough.
The only issue is this inks set has a $3 - $5 per Kg premium over most other ink sets. But as soon as you factor in the trouble free running the cost difference is a mute argument.

The ink I trialled was had "Toyo Hyplus" on the box, though the canister was unlabeled so I can't be 100% sure that this was the actual ink. We also have some "Best One" to try: I'll throw some in on Monday...

Interesting that you mention dot-gain too Luke: dot-gain has been markedly increased since we began running the Perfexion vs the Impression series HS inks. Trying to explain this to your boss can be.... frustrating to say the least: they seem happy for you to run what I consider a "compromised" job in which you cut the ink film back to get good skin tones (for example) but end up with weak looking solids as a result. It's a good thing that a good scotch always listens to you when you get home.....

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Water - Pick Up

Water - Pick Up

Hello Erik,


We have covered this topic before ! PDF


http://printplanet.com/forums/attac...-feed-simulation-test-water-pick-up-graph.pdf



Regards, Alois

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Part 2

Part 2

Emulsification Curves PDF


http://printplanet.com/forums/attac...simulation-test-emulsification-curve-2323.pdf

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Emulsification Curves PDF


http://printplanet.com/forums/attac...simulation-test-emulsification-curve-2323.pdf

It is so nice to see these old documents Alois.

It will be more interesting when they will have to redo them in the future.

 

[D Ink Man]

Mr. D, I can't let this go by without some clarification.

Can you describe why the micro emulsion would have an affect on density control?

What in your view are the cause and affect issues?

Thanks.

See the succeeding replies from this Erik for confirmation of what I said.

Field results is what is of real value to the forum. Realize that. Printing is still an art and I thank you for trying to make it into a science. I respect your work and am interested. However, that isn't what keeps the lights on in print shops. It is practical application and the sharing of experiences.

Gordo, showing his usual ability to be a master of using a web based search engine, and providing information likes your reply Erik. In respect to you Erik you offered nothing more than an interrogative to me, no data to help the people. Gordo likes it, because he dislikes me and that's OK.

But please remember, I will only offer information that I have much experience with that will be of help to the printers of the planet who are trying to survive and sometimes reach prosperity.

D

 

[Deleted member 16349]

See the succeeding replies from this Erik for confirmation of what I said.

Field results is what is of real value to the forum. Realize that. Printing is still an art and I thank you for trying to make it into a science. I respect your work and am interested. However, that isn't what keeps the lights on in print shops. It is practical application and the sharing of experiences.

Gordo, showing his usual ability to be a master of using a web based search engine, and providing information likes your reply Erik. In respect to you Erik you offered nothing more than an interrogative to me, no data to help the people. Gordo likes it, because he dislikes me and that's OK.

But please remember, I will only offer information that I have much experience with that will be of help to the printers of the planet who are trying to survive and sometimes reach prosperity.

D

OK D. I can accept that your comments are from your experience. That's fine. Being analytical, I tend to want an analytical type of description, which is not always so easy to obtain. There are all kinds of knowledge and experience for sure is one of them.

I will say that experience alone does not always result in the right description or answers and we have to let the outcome of on going research determine what is actually happening.

I won't press you about your specific statement since it is meant to help printers even if it may not be totally explainable in detail. Lots of things in life are not totally explainable but are helpful in some way.

I would hope that on this forum, any differences in opinions are not based on dislikes of personalities but on the differences in how people view ideas and issues. Personally I don't dislike anyone on the forum but I don't agree with many and many don't agree with me.

We all have a right to have wrong views. And there is no obligation for one to change the mind of another. But it is fine to put out ideas and views and see what happens. There is no need to think that comments are personal.

 

[D Ink Man]

Respected reply Erik.

And now back to our regularly scheduled program.

TOYO it is.

D

 

[Bama12]

I used Hostman Inks for several years with very good luck. I used there version #1849 until a few years ago, as I understand, Hostman bought a company in India (Micro Ink I think ?) and from that purchase introduced the Inkredible process ink series as I remember there were four different ones in the new series. Soon after their introduction they stopped offering there UK versions here in the southern US. My experinece with with the Reflecta (or Perfecta?) and Rapida I did not have very good results with either. I was running on a Heidelberg 102 and the problem was that the ink seemed to set very quickly on the surface but it was not setting so well underneath which caused us problems in the finishing department. The ink would feel as if it were dry to the touch but if you applied any pressure such as a thumb twist it was not dry. Also the folder operators hands as well as the folder belts would be covered in ink after folding a job.

 

[D Ink Man]

I used Hostman Inks for several years with very good luck. I used there version #1849 until a few years ago, as I understand, Hostman bought a company in India (Micro Ink I think ?) and from that purchase introduced the Inkredible process ink series as I remember there were four different ones in the new series. Soon after their introduction they stopped offering there UK versions here in the southern US. My experinece with with the Reflecta (or Perfecta?) and Rapida I did not have very good results with either. I was running on a Heidelberg 102 and the problem was that the ink seemed to set very quickly on the surface but it was not setting so well underneath which caused us problems in the finishing department. The ink would feel as if it were dry to the touch but if you applied any pressure such as a thumb twist it was not dry. Also the folder operators hands as well as the folder belts would be covered in ink after folding a job.

Bama12, very nice reply and information given on your experiences.

Sir, what you have described with your experiences on the Heidey 102 with the ink setting up and not drying through and underneath is a very, very common problem that will be found with most commercially offered sheet fed process series in today's marketplace.

It is very easy for a printer to recognize these inks. They are what is known as "Stay Open Inks". These inks have only setting properties built into their mechanisms. They do have adequate DRYING formulary smarts built into them, which causes the problems that you have clearly mentioned.

To recognize the problem of set only, no dry inks simply open a container of one of the inks and let it set open in your pressroom, uncovered. Check the ink twice daily to see if a skin has formed on it. If the ink is not skinned within 48 hours every printer that does not aqueous coat will eventually have issues as you have described. Even printers who aqueous coat will also eventually have problems, post press. This is not conjecture, this is a fact. Printers that use these inks are sitting on a TIME BOMB.

You do need inks that have some measure of setting properties, but more importantly you need inks that DRY.

You can also identify these problematic type of sheet fed inks by their selling prices. Usually, but not in all cases, these inks will sell in the $15.00 ballpark range for the total series. STAY AWAY FROM THEM!

Who needs CHEAP PRICED INKS and INKS that DON'T DRY?

Normally, but not always, these inks will have an origin of ink manufactured out of the confines of the United States. 90%+ estimate is a pretty educated guess.

So again in summary, pay more for your offset sheet fed process inks, and you will get a huge return long term for your smart choice. Cleaning a press; the trains, the ink fountains at the end of a day's run time is the remedy that will cure all ills. Please trust my reply. Thank you.

D Ink Man