InDesign - Transparency Effects not displaying in PDFs

[abccolor]

I am experiencing a situation where I have a Frame with a stroke and a multiply effect which does not display in the PDF. If the multiply effect is removed, the object displays in the PDF. (I am using the PDF/X-4 preset to create the PDF.)

Any new paths created within the document exhibit the same results.

If I create a Frame or Path in a NEW document, apply the stroke and multiply effect, and then copy and paste it into my first document, the pasted items display in the PDF without difficulty.

If I copy the troublesome Frame from the original document and paste it into a new document, it exhibits the same results (it will not display in the PDF). I then create a new Frame in the new document, on the same layer, and with the same attributes. When a PDF is created the troblesome Frame will not display, but the new Frame right next to it will.

I have preflighted the resulting PDF, and both Frames are listed in the Form XObjects. I can also use the selection tool the the Acrobat Plug-In PitStop to select the Frame which is not displayed.

1. Am I missing a setting which is object specific and is carried with the copy paste?

2. What else could be the cause of this situation?

I will provide the InDesign and PDF samples.

 

[DCurry]

I can confirm that I am seeing the same thing as you. I don't know what the reason is. I deleted the bad shape and duplicated the good one to get both to print if that helps.

 

[abccolor]

Thank you.

Unfortunately this is a simplified example from a much larger and complex document. I have seen this issue more than once and need to find the root cause.

 

[DCurry]

I just discovered that if during export you change compatibility to Acrobat 4 (PDF 1.3) the problem goes away. Unfortunately, this will flatten all your transparency, which may or may not be a problem for you depending on the job.

 

[abccolor]

Yes transparency is a must. I know I ask for the world, but I also know this should work correctly.... especially since the box next to it does.

I forgot to mention I am running Windows Vista 64 with Adobe CS4 and Acrobat 9 Professional.

 

[DCurry]

You're right - it should work as is and you are not asking too much.

Instead of using Multiply, can you achieve your desired effect by setting the frames to overprint?

 

[abccolor]

We are a firm of 300. Multiply is a standard part of our process, and it does work generally. My problem is that this document is exhibiting strange behavior and the full document would require recreation to get past this. Only a few hours work, but I have seen this problem before and need to understand why it is happening. If it is just a setting that i am unaware of, I can't have the designers recreate their work from a blank document.

Any new paths created within the (original) InDesign document exhibit the same results.
I will upload a copy of the original document with confidential content removed.

Thanks for your attention to this.

 

[DCurry]

I understand, but if the frame is black and you simply need it to overprint, Multiply is not the "proper" way to achieve it. Whether it is 1 person doing it wrong or 300 has no bearing - bad habits are bad habits.

For further proof, try this little test: In a new ID document, draw a box and fill it with 50% Cyan. Now, draw another box and fill it with 100% Black and make sure it is on top of and intersecting part of the cyan box. Set the Black box to Multiply. Now open up the Separations preview and turn off the visibility of the black plate and you will see that it is changing the value of the cyan where the 2 boxes intersect. A proper overprint would not do that. To see what a proper overprint would look like, change the black box back to Normal blending mode and use the Attributes palette to overprint the fill (or set your prefs as noted below to overprint all Black). Now look at your separations again and you will see that the cyan values do not change where the black overprints it.

If you set your InDesign preferences under Appearance of Black to Overprint Black Swatch at 100% then you won't have to worry about using Multiply in this instance.

However, if there are colors other than Black that need to Multiply it is not so easy.

Of course, none of this explains the strange behavior your file is exhibiting - I've never seen that issue before. Perhaps it is a bug or you had a corrupt file somewhere along the way and the problem has snowballed as documents get passed around and elements are copied/pasted from one to another.

I would recommend that you also post this issue over on the forums at b4print.com. They love this kind of thing over there (I'm also active there as well) and might see something that I missed.

 

[abccolor]

This is a very simplified example of exactly what is not working. The usage of the multiply is extensive using many colors and multiple layers of content. Like I had stated, this process works fine for us 99.9% of the time. It is only when someone comes to me with this problem that I need to fix it rather than having it re-done.

I have been able to change the state of the original file in that new content drawn on the artboard will now display while the old content still does not. As we speak I am investigating exactly what has changed.

Thank you for the b4print.com suggestion. I am on the Adobe Forum as well, and seem to be getting different feedback from both directions.

 

[DCurry]

I am eager to see how this plays out and if you find a solution, or at least a reason!

 

[abccolor]

The transparency problem seems to be initiated by an interaction with other pages in the document. If I delete a range of pages, or move the troublesome page earlier in the document, I am able to create new transparen content that will display when PDF'ed, but the existing transparent content still exhibits the same problem.Somehow specific content on the page is retaining the characteristics from this interaction with the other pages. Content has been moved to another layer without success, and prior to the page move new content was created on another layer without success.

I have included the original 52 page InDesign document with all content removed except for some transparent objects on page 52. In this current state the existing objects and and new transparent objects will not display in the PDF.

 

[abccolor]

I have included the original 52 page InDesign document with all content removed except for some transparent objects on page 52. In this current state the existing objects and and new transparent objects will not display in the PDF.

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

Your object does not disappear it is hidden by a corrupt clipping path!
Somehow you have a corrupt clipping path. Your object does exist in the PDF file. If you open the PDF in illustrator then you will see from the icon of the clipping path that something is wrong (a grey shape with no visible shape) How this has happened I don't know, as others have said using PDFx1 seems to not have this problem (possibly because the flattener has to resolve the clipping path).
If you select both objects in Acrobat using the touch-up tool then right click you can remove the clipping path, and your hidden object appears.
It would take understanding your whole project to give you a full strategy for avoiding these issues. Yes I do agree it appears to be a bug, but to be able to solve it you would have to commit time and energy to define it.
Transparency does add complexity that I think none of us could forecast. For transparency logic to work there has to be underlying objects, and here is where problems begin when transparency is used rather than overprint. This is not the first time I see design speeding beyond what the intents of technology were. Making a technology totally stable takes allot of feed back to the engineers.

remember it is all 1's and 0's Try exporting to IDML or exchange then opening again, some times that can remove a corruption in a file.

 

[pcmodem]

DCurry,

I see exactly what you are talking about with the 50% Black and the Multiply. But how you explained it isn't quite right.

The default of InDesign is to have "Overprint [Black] Swatch at 100%" checked. This means when the Black swatch is used at 100% it will overprint.

Setup:
Use the default "Overprint [Black] Swatch at 100%" checked
Create a 50% cyan frame.
Create a frame with the [Black] swatch at 100% which overlaps the cyan frame.

With separation preview on, place your cursor in the overlapped Cyan/Black area.
Cyan will show 50% and the Black 100%

Now select the Black Frame and make the effect Multiply.
Place your cursor in the overlapped area and look in the separation preview. Cyan is 75% and Black is 100%
You are getting an Overprint and a Multiply. The Overprint gets applied first and then the Multiply afterwords.

 

[pcmodem]

I was about ready to report on the same thing Lukas did

One thing I did notice, is that the actual clipping path is in the document, but it is 37 inches above the page when viewed within Illustrator.

What I found odd about the clipping path is that it is only a line with 2 points instead of a box with 4 points. The stranger part is when you are moving the line. It appears to be a box with 4 points and that are criss-crossed. One pyramid right side up and the other one upside down. But when you release the move, it moves and is only a line.

My first question to the designer would be. How did you get the shape into the InDesign document? ie, copy and paste from else where within InDesign, Illustrator, Corel Draw, etc. or Draw within InDesign

Perhaps the designer has some additional plug-ins within InDesign which could be creating the problem.

 

[abccolor]

Gentlemen thank you so much for your help. Lukas I was looking forward to a response from either you or Gordo, but I know Gordo is more of the print guy.

The remove clip is an excellent fix suggestion and I hope to use it versus the recreate from blank document method. This will help me resolve the issue when it is brought to my attention, but I still hope to gain some understanding of the root cause.

In my post yeaterday I included the original 52 page document with all content removed from the pages with the exception of these sample shapes. Even with all of the additional content and layers deleted I am still experiencing the corruption. When I delete the additional pages, and then create a new object, no corruption is experienced with the new object.

Do we have any idea what what characteristics could be contained in the previous blank pages which would cause this corruption in the first place?

Peter Spier on the Adobe forum suggested the IDML or exchange idea, but that did not work.

@pcmodem - The designer used the pen tool and the frame tool with added anchor points to create the shapes. The stroke was added, the fill, and then multiply was activated.

I know I have dropped a puzzle on the table here, and their is probably an underlying InDesign bug, but at this point I would like to understand the combination creating this situation.

Thank you again

 

[abccolor]

Lukas, thanks again. the problem appeared again on two random pages.

 

[abccolor]

The Work around

The Work around

Adobe Forums: InDesign - Transparency Effects not displaying in PDFs

 

[rich apollo]

I believe you have either a system specific issue, or something related to the OS. I can export the posted files to PDF/X-4 without incident.