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Ink transfer and paper curl

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Hello fellow Lithographers and Messrs. Green Printer, Al Ferrari and Lukew.


Paper Curl

What you are seeing is - A) Back Edge Curl

B) cause: Blanket Adhesion, due to lack of moisture lubrication.​

A PDF - Paper Curl with the grain and against the grain



Regards, Alois
 

Attachments

  • Paper Curl # 1153.pdf
    471.5 KB · Views: 255
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Cobalt 12% at 1.50 percent
Cobalt 12 percent at 1.50 percent
Cobalt 12% at 1.50%

Are these three totally different pieces of information? Just what is the Cobalt content of such an ink from anyone of those statements? Are we to multiply .12 by .015?

You need to ask your ink manufacturer to provide information in plain language.

Al
 
Green printer was alcohol sub used with the high voc fountain solution?

Yes an alcohol sub was used at 4 oz per gallon. The sub was 85% VOC. The fountain solution used was at 4 oz per gallon. The FS was 45% voc.

.85 x 4 oz = 3.4 oz
.45 x 4 oz = 1.8 oz
The run had 5.2 oz per gallon of 2-Butoxyethanol VOC's in the fountain solution water.
 
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The high voc fountain solution ran without issue. We're all trying to pry this out of Green.

私が試してどんなに一生懸命、時に�� �それを取得していない人はありませ� ��。
 
Al as you surmised the paper curl was a big clue. If the sheet had curled up and not down we would have known instantly that it was the paper picking up water.

Interesting discussion which I am trying to follow.

Question and clarification. How do you define the curl direction up or down?

From what I have seen, if one wets paper with water on one side, the paper will curl away from that surface. Water tending to elongate the paper fibers. When it dries, it tends to recover some what. Is this curl defined as up or down?

Also if one runs paper over a small roller or a sharp edge, it will give it a curl away from the surface where there is a mechanical stretch of the fibers. Is this up or down curl?

Thanks for any clarification.
 
The old printing adage is "eliminate the variables". You altered something and now are having problems.

If everything but the fount is the same, and you now have a problem when you didn't before, you already know what the immediate cause is. Finding a workable solution shouldn't be very hard at all. I would personally try adjusting the mix so I could temporarily, at least, run less water overall...which is what you should be doing anyway in most cases. As you most likely already know, the least amount of ink and water necessary to run the job at proper density is always the best condition, for curl, drying, prevention of set-off, everything. It's even cheaper by a miniscule amount.

You could also try a different ink if you've got something available, or adjust the tack of your usual ink with body gum or reducer, to make your your ink a bit more compatible with your current solution mix. In a generic, hypothetical case, and depending on what you suspect is the mostly likely cause of the curl, ink or water, you could probably increase tack and run with a lower water setting, or decrease tack and run the water a little faster, depending on conditions and the kind of image you're trying to print.

All larger-format sheetfed printing presses print much better when the grain is running across the press. Anyone who's been running a press for a decade or more should have seen that for themselves many, many times by now. It generally produces less curl and much better fit. Parent sizes and bindery concerns can often take priority over what the press/operator might prefer, unfortunately, and on single color black, fit certainly isn't a factor. But even then, running the grain across the width of the press ("long-grain" on the actual press sheet) is still ideal. Judging from the sheet size used in this case, the grain would appear to be correct, so that probably isn't it.

I think we sometimes try to be TOO technical about this stuff. What works this time may not work at all next time, and the reason could be something as simple as humidity in the pressroom. I think the better plan is to have an arsenal of practical experience and knowledge from which to draw on, such that you've always got something else to try that could realistically cure an unusual problem.

In the good ol' days, we'd have just cranked the IPA up to about 30% and then run less solution overall, and it would usually come out looking, running and drying great...and flat. Also, if you've got curl at the tail, you could always try feathering the packing to make the sheet release more gradually. That's usually not worth the effort on shorter runs, but on a 26K run it could be. I haven't had to do that myself in years though, since I started running presses with decurlers.

Understanding technology is great and important, yes. But in this case, all you're really trying to do is get through a job so you can move on to the next. You probably don't need to spend two extra hours investigating what exactly is going wrong, when all you need to do is try one or two quick-fixes that might take ten minutes total and may not even be necessary next time you run the job.
 
Hi Erik,

If a seasoned engineer can't tell up from down, we are in serious trouble. ;-)

But taking you seriously: the curl direction terms are used here in connection with a real press event. Particularly the arrival of the sheets at the press delivery pile printed side up. Curl "down" describes the shape of the sheet, in the delivery, with the corners or edges being lower than the center of the sheet. Curl "up" would be the opposite.

Note that this use of the terms does not involve the cause of this effect. That's what the discussion is trying to determine.

Al
 
Hi Al,

We are in trouble for sure. It is not so uncommon to get things wrong. In the early study of electricity the poles were designated as positive and negative long before anyone knew exactly what electricity was. Current flow was defined as going from positive to negative. But in fact the electrons go from negative to positive, which is against the current flow convention.

This has never been corrected and those who work with electrical circuits and devices know this. Current is calculated in one direction but the actual flow of electrons is in the other direction.

So that kind of thing happens. It is about how one defines the terms. To me it seemed reasonable to think that the curl would be down if the paper picked up water and not up. Since that is not what was stated, I was wondering if there was some other convention about how to describe curl.

I don't see how water pickup of the paper or the higher force to release the paper from the blanket produces the up curl. I would expect a down curl. Maybe some other factors are at work. Just a thought.
 
Paper Curl part # 2

Paper Curl part # 2

Gentlemen,

Paper Curl and other Paper Related Problems

The cause of many paper problems we encounter begin with the formation of paper

on the Fourdrinier Machine

* Two Sides of Paper a) Wire Side - b) Felt Side


PDF - A) Paper Curl #2


Regards, Alois
 

Attachments

  • Paper Curl # 2154.pdf
    716.6 KB · Views: 258
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"I don't see how water pickup of the paper or the higher force to release the paper from the blanket produces the up curl. I would expect a down curl."

Erik I know you can't really mean that! Look at your 5:41 AM post where you say:

"Also if one runs paper over a small roller or a sharp edge, it will give it a curl away from the surface where there is a mechanical stretch of the fibers."

That's exactly how sheet decurlers work on the deliveries of sheet fed presses. On those devices the atmospheric air pressure pushes on the sheet as it passes the crevice of the device. By analogy, the adhesion forces acting between the paper and the blanket cause the sheet to curl as it is being pulled off the blanket by the chain delivery grippers.

So much for the mechanical cause of the curl. What remains to be determined is what is causing the adhesion of the sheet to the blanket: the tacky ink on the image areas of the blanket, or the so called lack of "lubricity" of the fountain solution on the non image areas of the blanket. Or both.

Al
 
Erik I know you can't really mean that! Look at your 5:41 AM post where you say:

"Also if one runs paper over a small roller or a sharp edge, it will give it a curl away from the surface where there is a mechanical stretch of the fibers."

That's exactly how sheet decurlers work on the deliveries of sheet fed presses. On those devices the atmospheric air pressure pushes on the sheet as it passes the crevice of the device. By analogy, the adhesion forces acting between the paper and the blanket cause the sheet to curl as it is being pulled off the blanket by the chain delivery grippers.

So much for the mechanical cause of the curl. What remains to be determined is what is causing the adhesion of the sheet to the blanket: the tacky ink on the image areas of the blanket, or the so called lack of "lubricity" of the fountain solution on the non image areas of the blanket. Or both.

Al

The statements claimed that the curl was up from pulling it off the blanket. I thought it would curl down the same way running it over a sharp edge curls it down. The outer fibers on the paper on the opposite side of the edge are stretched by going around the sharp bend.

If the claim is that the curl is up from pulling it off a sticky blanket, then I don't yet understand that mechanism for the up curl.
 
The statements claimed that the curl was up from pulling it off the blanket. I thought it would curl down the same way running it over a sharp edge curls it down. The outer fibers on the paper on the opposite side of the edge are stretched by going around the sharp bend.

If the claim is that the curl is up from pulling it off a sticky blanket, then I don't yet understand that mechanism for the up curl.

I regret having to take you to task on this Erik, but up to this point (6:19 Tuesday 7/17) there have been no statements making such a claim. Just before writing this I took the trouble to re-read all of the posts to date, and no one has made such statement to the effect that the curl was up from any cause whatsoever. Please quote the time, date, and author of the post(s) where such statements were made.

Your mistaken "recollection" that such statements were made may be responsible for your not understanding "the mechanism for the up curl".

Green Printer in whose shop the actual press work was performed has reported that the curl was down. What remains unsettled here is the cause of this.

For the record, I subscribe to the belief that tack of the ink in the image areas of the blanket is the major cause of the paper adhering strongly to the blanket, thus causing the down curl as the sheet is pulled off by the delivery chain grippers, and that the offending fountain solution caused an increase in the tack of the in.

It is also worth noting that Green Printers report indicates that the press either has no sheet de-curler in the delivery, or that it was not functioning properly.

Al
 
The answer is.
First we must understand the ink and water combination.
The ink used a very large dryer load along with 13.5 % vocs and required a highly solventized fountain solution to maintain stability during a run. The answer for this ink to run stable is the solvent based fountain solution. The solventized fountain solution is the answer
The second portion of the run was trouble because of the ink not being stable using a virtually voc free fountain solution. The ink was beginning to dry up on the plate and blanket This caused a high ink shear blanket to substrate causing the curl .This ink requires the voc's from the fountain solution and the alcohol sub to combat the high dryer load to maintain stability.
This job is ran every 3 weeks same paper and form. This job has a history over a multi year period allowing easy comparison. It has a steady history of using 17 to 18 pounds of ink.


3 weeks later this job was ran with an ink change.
New ink
cobalt 12% was at .25%,
mag 12% was at .25%
and no china wood oil.
Voc of 1.5%
The fountain solution was a virtually voc free 1 step at 4 oz per gallon AND no alcohol subs.
52,000 sheets ran only stopping was to load the feeder
blankets did not need cleaned
no curl the sheets laid perfectly flat.
run time 5.8 hour
Ink used 12 pounds.
This run has been going on for 3 years since the ink fountain and change a total of 51 times. The ink savings of 5 pound per run for a total of 255 pounds.
With the ink savings averaging 5# per run at $3.50 per pound or $17.50 that makes the fountain solution free with all of the ink savings.
 
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I regret having to take you to task on this Erik, but up to this point (6:19 Tuesday 7/17) there have been no statements making such a claim. Just before writing this I took the trouble to re-read all of the posts to date, and no one has made such statement to the effect that the curl was up from any cause whatsoever. Please quote the time, date, and author of the post(s) where such statements were made.

Your mistaken "recollection" that such statements were made may be responsible for your not understanding "the mechanism for the up curl".

Green Printer in whose shop the actual press work was performed has reported that the curl was down. What remains unsettled here is the cause of this.

For the record, I subscribe to the belief that tack of the ink in the image areas of the blanket is the major cause of the paper adhering strongly to the blanket, thus causing the down curl as the sheet is pulled off by the delivery chain grippers, and that the offending fountain solution caused an increase in the tack of the in.

It is also worth noting that Green Printers report indicates that the press either has no sheet de-curler in the delivery, or that it was not functioning properly.

Al

Al, I shall stay out of these discussion but will follow them since they have been interesting. I am sure I did get some info wrong on the direction of the curl but not all. Green Printer did say the curl was down in his test but he also said that if it was due to water, the curl would be up.

In Alois post yesterday, he supplied a PDF showing an up curl and said it was due to blanket adhesion.

OK, I am confused by such statements and will stay out of the discussion.

Since the curl is down due to the higher force to pull the sheet off the blanket, I am happy with that. That is what I would expect.
 
Then the prize goes to Sustainable for having suspected in his 7/15, 6:5 6PM post that the dryer load was probably a key factor in making the ink excessively tacky when the "inappropriate" fountain solution was used.

Al
 
Green Printer, do you care to share with us the reason for using so much dryer in a print run of that many sheets?

Al
 
The original ink with 7% dryer seems high is it normal for inks to have that many dryers in them.
I have looked at a couple of our MSDS and the dryer load (cob/mag) not including the linseed oil is mainly less then 1% with some sets being less then 2%

Green Printer :
You have more then likely run the high VOC fountain solution & the ink with a high dryer load on some other jobs (silk / uncoated stocks), as with the low voc fountain solution and low dryer content ink. Which one dried faster?

On a side note, your ink must be very cheap in the US..
Most black here would go for $4.90 - $5.45 per pound.
 
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