Green Printer
Registered Users
It was a standard off the self ink recommend by an ink manufacturer for quick print to cut jobs.
Ink transfer and paper curl
- Thread starter Green Printer
- Start date
It was a standard off the self ink recommend by an ink manufacturer for quick print to cut jobs.
The "dryer" or more properly called drier has nothing at all to due with ink drying up on the blanket. These driers do not start to react in the drying process for at least a minimum of 4 hours at the ink film that would be encountered on the blanket. If you question this, I would next ask what is the skin time of your ink.
The inherent stability of the ink is being influenced by the change with the fountain solution. The higher VOC fount is adding stability to your ink and water emulsion that is travelling through the press; ink fountain to roller train to form roller to plate to blanket to stock. Again the drier has nothing at all to do with it. It is ink oil stability. And the higher VOC fount is adding this improved, longer stability that results in a wetter blanket, for longer periods into the run. This is my summary after trying to extrapolate the text in this thread. D
The inherent stability of the ink is being influenced by the change with the fountain solution. The higher VOC fount is adding stability to your ink and water emulsion that is travelling through the press; ink fountain to roller train to form roller to plate to blanket to stock. Again the drier has nothing at all to do with it. It is ink oil stability. And the higher VOC fount is adding this improved, longer stability that results in a wetter blanket, for longer periods into the run. This is my summary after trying to extrapolate the text in this thread. D
There were other contributing factors and variables that accounted for that. I an smart enough to know that the claim that the only difference was the ink, and the change from the higher drier amount to the lower drier amount is highly improbable. This I can guarantee. It is common sense when you think about it. D
Sustainable
Banned
This should be read by all.
http://www.genesischemistry.com/pdf/training/ModernPaperCharacteristics.pdf
http://www.genesischemistry.com/pdf/training/ModernPaperCharacteristics.pdf
Green Printer
Registered Users
Sustainable we seen this about 6 or 7 years ago it tells it like it is. When you use ink and fountain solution made to work together taking into account the paper making process you encounter very few problems if any.
edwardraj a
Member
Hi
Its possible to run without IPA?If possible how and which fount is suitable?
Its possible to run without IPA?If possible how and which fount is suitable?
Sustainable
Banned
There is a response sent to your private message.
D
Deleted member 16349
Guest
Yes, but it is not yet a workable option. Basically the fountain solution or similar media is premixed with the ink.
Al Ferrari
Well-known member
Well if you knew this all along, why didn't you involve your in supplier in searching a solution/explanation to the problem? and if you did get a response on this from the ink company, why haven't you shared that with us on this thread?
Al
D
Deleted member 16349
Guest
I worked for a flexible packaging printer, starting in 1984. They were not using IPA in their offset printing process. I suspect it is quite common for other printers printing for food packaging not to use IPA and they have been doing that a long time.
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Alois Senefelder
Well-known member
Enlightenment: Part 1
Enlightenment: Part 1
Hello fellow Lithographers,
Answers to why does Paper Curl,Paper Peel on leaving the blanket, forget about the theories of -
High/Low VOCs in F.S. also the addition of extra paste driers into Ink.
The answer is the various properties of paper, such as a) Smoothness, b) Air Permeability, c) Paper Grain,
d) GSM, e)Speed. Other factors include, 1) Forces of Pressure, 2) Ink Tack.
Part 2 - later
Regards, Alois
Enlightenment: Part 1
Hello fellow Lithographers,
Answers to why does Paper Curl,Paper Peel on leaving the blanket, forget about the theories of -
High/Low VOCs in F.S. also the addition of extra paste driers into Ink.
The answer is the various properties of paper, such as a) Smoothness, b) Air Permeability, c) Paper Grain,
d) GSM, e)Speed. Other factors include, 1) Forces of Pressure, 2) Ink Tack.
Part 2 - later
Regards, Alois
Green Printer
Registered Users
The 52,000 sheet job was started in 2004 and ran until 2010. The ink suppliers were given the paper manufacturing information. They all had the same response saying the paper sizing information was BS. Just keep using the high drier load ink with the high voc fountain solution. The BS answers were so common and from just about all the suppliers. You get tired of hearing the same BS over and over.
We had been working with a supplier continuously since 1992 on many other projects and presses. The supplier was 100% correct on all aspects of every project we had worked on together. In fact our whole shop except the one press that the 52,000 pc projects were manufactured on was the only one not using the system. The old pressman was very cantankerous and said it ain't broke since he was about to retire we let it ride. The change was made after his retirement. Best thing we every did now the whole shop is using the system and we have no troubles. We ran the job for an additional 3 years after he retired until mid 2010 when the contract was ended. The press was sold shortly thereafter.
We get our pressroom consumable supplies from BestChem Supply since 2006 and Amerikal since 1992.
D Ink Man.
I may be wrong but I think the point of this thread was to get technical suppliers to put forth their thoughts and reasoning behind why the issue was occurring. Green Printer would have known or had his thoughts as to why it was happening
I wasn't around during the acid paper making days but if it is true that some fountain solutions PH have been changed in line with the shift to alkalyn paper making. What was the PH level of founts back then?
As looking at a lot of fountain solutions they are still ii the 3.5ph - 5ph range including the ones in question.
I may be wrong but I think the point of this thread was to get technical suppliers to put forth their thoughts and reasoning behind why the issue was occurring. Green Printer would have known or had his thoughts as to why it was happening
I wasn't around during the acid paper making days but if it is true that some fountain solutions PH have been changed in line with the shift to alkalyn paper making. What was the PH level of founts back then?
As looking at a lot of fountain solutions they are still ii the 3.5ph - 5ph range including the ones in question.
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Green Printer
Registered Users
Follow the years when this job was manufactured. In December of 2006 working with Mr. Danielson the problem was solved almost 6 years ago. This was right after the cantankerous pressman retired. The job ran for another 53 times. over the next 3 years and a few months. The contract ended in mid 2010.
I wish to thank all of you for your views and insights it was quite educational.
Green Printer
Registered Users
I forgot the second part of this. The formula was from 2004 and is very similar in drier load to the ink formula recipe posted by D ink Man
Hand this Formula to Your Ink Supplier and Tell Him to Get Busy
Offset Sheet Fed D Ink Man Black
Hi Solids Gel Varnish 30.00
Hi Solids Free Flow Varnish 19.00
Terlon #3 Alkyd 4.00
Mogul L Carbon Black 8.00
Regal 400-R Carbon Black 10.00
Flush Alkali R/S 6.50
Dry PTFE 2.50
High melt PE Compound 3.00
Cobalt 12% Ten Cem 1.50
Manganese 12% Drier 1.50
Raw Linseed Oil 10.00
Chinawood Oil 4.00
T-O-T-A-L ___________
100.00
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Green Printer you are getting things very confused here.
That black formula you posted here was from another thread and for an entirely different purpose. That formula was posted originally by myself on 7-10-12 at 5:01 pm in the thread "printing on bond".
That black formula will help minimize picking off on the back cylinder with offset, bond paper. Entirely different subject.
It has nothing to do with this thread, because the problems and variations are not related to ink. This is a fountain solution and/or mechanical problem that are causing paper curl and runnability problems.
It is very possible if I were the resident ink tech working with the printer to resolve the issues, that black formula would not even be near to the formula I would provide. But again, this is not an ink problem and has nothing to do with drier amounts and such contained in the ink.
Now let's please rendezvous the ink content analysis for this thread and get back to the subject. Let's all try to play nice here for the good of the Planet. D
That black formula you posted here was from another thread and for an entirely different purpose. That formula was posted originally by myself on 7-10-12 at 5:01 pm in the thread "printing on bond".
That black formula will help minimize picking off on the back cylinder with offset, bond paper. Entirely different subject.
It has nothing to do with this thread, because the problems and variations are not related to ink. This is a fountain solution and/or mechanical problem that are causing paper curl and runnability problems.
It is very possible if I were the resident ink tech working with the printer to resolve the issues, that black formula would not even be near to the formula I would provide. But again, this is not an ink problem and has nothing to do with drier amounts and such contained in the ink.
Now let's please rendezvous the ink content analysis for this thread and get back to the subject. Let's all try to play nice here for the good of the Planet. D
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