Kodak Trillia plates?

[stargate]

Anyone is using it? How do they compare to Fuji LHPJ?

 

[KevinC@EFI]

Anyone is using it? How do they compare to Fuji LHPJ?

I'll let our customers speak directly about this instead of giving you the Kodak view for now - but to help you find information online, the official name is "Trillian SP".

Let me know if I can help in any way though - either publicly or through private message/email

Kevin.

 

[Bob Weir]

Trillian

Trillian

The Trillian is currently made in China, I would be concerned about receiving product.
I attached a link to an article of an Austrian company using Trillian


NP Druck cuts costs, gets greener with KODAK TRILLIAN SP Thermal Plate - Printing Industry News from WhatTheyThink

 

[KevinC@EFI]

The Trillian is currently made in China, I would be concerned about receiving product.
I attached a link to an article of an Austrian company using Trillian


NP Druck cuts costs, gets greener with KODAK TRILLIAN SP Thermal Plate - Printing Industry News from WhatTheyThink

Thanks for posting that link.

Trillian SP is actually made in both Europe and China at the moment, and will be made in the USA shortly as well (the products are designed to be completely interchangeable, for redundancy and security of supply). I do understand your concern in the short term - with any long supply chain it has to be properly managed - but our ramp-up in the USA is being carefully managed and we have more than ample inventory in place for our customers here. Given some of the huge accounts jumping on board the Trillian SP wagon, we can't afford to take any risks in that respect either!

Kevin.

Kevin.

 

[vansrv8er]

What about Chemistry? I understand lower pH but voc?

 

[KevinC@EFI]

What about Chemistry? I understand lower pH but voc?

Hi Vansrv8er -

The Trillian SP processing system uses a pH Neutral solution to wash off the unexposed coating (pH 6.8 before processing, pH of almost exactly 7 at the end of the bath life). It also is not sensitive to air exposure, so you don't need any anti-ox replenishment (i.e. you can turn the processor completely off when not in use - even for weeks - and the bath won't change at all). The replenishment rate is 40-50ml/m2, depending on plate volume (the extra 10ml is to compensate for evaporation in low-volume accounts). EDIT: bath life is up to 40,000 ft/2 or 8 weeks (or more!) before you have to dump/clean/refill.

For VOC's, using the EPA-specified test method (EPA Test Method 24) for this type of printing material, the results show no VOC emissions. However, that's a bit of a misleading statement because the test method itself is broken when it comes to aqueous solutions... even though it's specified for exactly this type of solution. Essentially, liquids that contain a large portion of water may show negative VOC results - which most of our plate chemicals do. This is why we have chosen not to rant and rave about our "zero VOC" - we don't believe in the test method, even though it sounds good from a marketing perspective.

Having said that - we also do "sniffer testing" and monitoring at customer sites to ensure our processing systems aren't contributing huge VOC to the atmosphere. Real-world tests show that for the systems we've tested there are no appreciable emissions either. (it's truly a "system" test at that point though, not just one component of the system - so it's difficult to make a legally-binding blanket statement).


I hope that answers your question!

EDIT: here's a link to a similar discussion on VOC earlier, with a bit more detail: http://printplanet.com/forums/computer-plate/21982-positive-vs-negative-ctp/2#post138095




Kevin.

 

[Luvdgoof]

We recently switched to the Trillian plates and are having mixed results. From the Prepress standpoint, I am pleased with how the new plates work. They image/process faster, the chemistry is better, and our weekly calibration has very little variance. Not to mention the blue color is not bad to look at. Joking aside, we are having some issues on the press. Our Magenta plates have banding at our normal 45 degree screen angle, but if we switch it to a 75 degree angle the problem disappears. Also, our pressman are complaining that the dots are bigger now, but I think that's more of a press issue. Of coarse as someone that works in pre-press, the constant finger pointing between us and the pressman is ever present. There are certain lot numbers of the new plates do not clean as well, leaving behind clouding which requires and additional run through the processor. I assume it has to do with the fact that they are currently being processed in China. Once they begin manufacturing the plates locally, in Georgia I believe, I hope that problem goes away. Like anything in the begining stages, there are kinks to be worked out. I hope this plate ends up working out as well as I'd hoped. I'd hate to go back to Sword.

-Adam

 

[KevinC@EFI]

Also, our pressman are complaining that the dots are bigger now, but I think that's more of a press issue.

Actually, it could simply be that Trillian SP is a negative working plate (image the dots) instead of a positive plate (image the background). A negative plate typically is a bit fuller in the mid-tones, while a positive plate is a bit thin in the mid-tones. That difference is normally calibrated out - maybe that wasn't done at setup?

The banding you mention is a bit weird too - if you aren't in touch with support or need any help, let me know and I'll ensure we get that resolved for you asap. Both sound like solvable issues.


Kevin.

 

[Luvdgoof]

Actually, it could simply be that Trillian SP is a negative working plate (image the dots) instead of a positive plate (image the background). A negative plate typically is a bit fuller in the mid-tones, while a positive plate is a bit thin in the mid-tones. That difference is normally calibrated out - maybe that wasn't done at setup?

As I mentioned we do calibrate on a weekly basis and our numbers are in the same range as they were with our previous plates. We had a team of 4 Kodak people and one from Screen (our imager) here to help with the transition, I hope that something wasn't missed. Should we be aiming for lower numbers during calibration to compensate for the gain? We are in talks with both Kodak and Esko to resolve the issue. In the mean time we are experimenting with different dot types (Ellipise, Diamond, Round).

 

[gordo]

As I mentioned we do calibrate on a weekly basis and our numbers are in the same range as they were with our previous plates. We had a team of 4 Kodak people and one from Screen (our imager) here to help with the transition, I hope that something wasn't missed. Should we be aiming for lower numbers during calibration to compensate for the gain? We are in talks with both Kodak and Esko to resolve the issue. In the mean time we are experimenting with different dot types (Ellipise, Diamond, Round).

You wrote: "Our Magenta plates have banding at our normal 45 degree screen angle, but if we switch it to a 75 degree angle the problem disappears." By banding I assume you mean shade stepping - you don't get a smooth gradient? I ask because "banding" has another meaning in CtP and that is lines in the plate caused by the laser swath.

I don't believe that shade stepping would be affected by dot angle so it should appear in all four colors. It also shouldn't disappear if you switch Magenta to 75 degrees - it would just reappear in whichever color is now using the 45 degree angle (typically black). Also, since 45 degrees (like 0 and 90 degrees) is a rational angle, one would not expect there to be any issues related to screen angle.

I doubt that changing dot shape will have any impact on a shade stepping issue. The choice of Ellipse, Diamond, Euclidean, or Round primarily affects the visibility of the "optical bump" that occurs when dots begin to connect. The different dot shapes and benefits/issues are described here: Quality In Print: AM Screening Dot Shapes My preference for CtP is Round dot (which, incidentally was used to in the GRACoL characterization press runs) for the reasons given in the blog posting.

Normally you don't change plate imaging to change dot gains. Instead you would use a tone reproduction compensation curve applied in your workflow to alter the plate tones in order to create the tone reproduction you want on press.

best gordon p

 

[Raymond Ramirez]

can I give 2 cents

As Kevin stated, Negative is writing the image. Banding on the screen device is normally from the Zoom being out. It may not look like it on the plate as it comes off the device but as he runs a job on press. The outside edge of the scan line wears off because it was not hit hard enough.

By you changing the dot pattern may not be the answer. You might be masking the problem.

I do not know what the recommended speed or power is for the Trillian plate is on the screen device. It sounds like you are on the outside threshold of the plate.

You may see that some plates may look fine and then others may look bad because you are on the outside edge of the working enviroment for the plate and any deviation of the emultion causes issues, This looks like a plate issue when actually its not.

You may want to see what the recommendation for the blanket release factor for that plate is or try a quicker release that what the press is currently using.

I really dont think tack or viscosity of the ink is in play but if we can get Kevin or Gordo to respond they maybe able to enlighten us.

May we ask what Screen device you are currently using?

Ray

 

[Luvdgoof]

By banding I assume you mean shade stepping - you don't get a smooth gradient? I ask because "banding" has another meaning in CtP and that is lines in the plate caused by the laser swath.

Perhaps banding wasn't the right term. We are getting vertical lines spaced about 1/16" apart. It appears more on solid areas. We are having a separate problem with gradients stopping abruptly instead of fading slowly, but that is with all colors and a different issue all together. I didn't mean to hijack the thread with my printing problems, perhaps I should start a new post.

I doubt that changing dot shape will have any impact on a shade stepping issue. The choice of Ellipse, Diamond, Euclidean, or Round primarily affects the visibility of the "optical bump" that occurs when dots begin to connect.

Since this mainly has been happening when the Magenta value is around the mid-tone, I thought experimenting with the the shape would help. We've done one test so far and it seems to have worked, but one test isn't nearly enough of a definitive result. We aren't sure what's causing the "lines" and so far no one else does. Kodak is shaking its head and we have yet to hear back from Esko. This is a problem that has just surfaced, so I"m sure with time it will all be figured out, but the sooner the better.

 

[Luvdgoof]

Ray, I didn't see your post until after I had responded to Gordo. I am using a PlateRite 8100. The lines I have been referring to do appear on the plates themselves. We didn't notice them at first until they started showing up on the press, then we went back and started noticing them on the plates as well. They are very subtle on the plates, and at first we chalked it up to the way the gum had dried on the plates. Once it hits the press though, the lines become very visible. We are currrently running at the recommended speed and power (900 RPM @70% Power) for Trillian. If we were pushing the plate limits, wouldn't it be apparent on all our plates. Maybe it is affecting all of them, but it's only really noticeable on Magenta. I don't want to rule anything out though, since this is not my area of expertise.

 

[Raymond Ramirez]

I recommend going back to the machine data and looking at the resolution you are using and the Zoom value and start there. The banding you are seeing is not the plate. If you can see it I suspect that the device is not setup properly. Being a Certified yes certified screen technician (Under my Fuji employment) I believe that the issue is either the lead screw not running smoothly, Zoom not correct or a broken LD cable... you can test this by running a screen tint from the screen in user maintainence so this will eliminate PIF cable or data transfer issue

If you need assistance you may email me at [email protected]

 

[Raymond Ramirez]

The machine data should be located in a ziplock bag in the front. by taking the front door off and looking in the machine on the away side of the device (Left while looking at the machine)

Ray

 

[gordo]

Perhaps banding wasn't the right term. We are getting vertical lines spaced about 1/16" apart. It appears more on solid areas. We are having a separate problem with gradients stopping abruptly instead of fading slowly, but that is with all colors and a different issue all together. I didn't mean to hijack the thread with my printing problems, perhaps I should start a new post.

Banding is the correct term - you are using it correctly. I agree with Raymond's diagnosis direction. It's probably not the plate but related to the plate imaging instead. The vertical lines being inline with the rotation of the plate as it's being exposed, and also being about 1/16" apart is similar to the swath width of the exposing laser beam. The Screen engineer should be able to measure that to confirm. Gradients stopping abruptly may also be a symptom.

There is another possibility - probably remote. If the banding artifact widths do not align with the swath width of the laser then - since you say that it only appears on the Magenta unit - there is a possibility that you are experiencing a pressroom phenom known as 'Grind-lines' which will take on the appearance of what we call 'banding' and will completely have all the visual attributes of 'banding'. Going to a coarser halftone screen will reduce the visibility of grind-lines while increasing lpi will make the lines more visible. This can be tested for by printing plates with the imaging direction turned 90 degrees to the press direction. If the banding follows the press then it is likely a grind-line issue rather than a plate imaging issue.

Just some ideas. best, gordon p

 

[Raymond Ramirez]

Gordo

He so smart

The banding you see can actually be closer than 16th the swath aligning ontop of each just as a spead of deck of cards. the width ofthe card canot be seen but you can see a band where the swath doesnt hit (the lines of each card)

As Gordo recommends create a new plate size but use the same media setting.

and create a new printing machine so that you can follow it in your workflow.

if you need assistance I can help in doing this.

I suspect the blue and white wires on your device for the data are still in use for the recording head. If you perform a C1 pattern and use a 100 power loop you will be able to
tell which wire it is (if this is a broken wire)

Ray

 

[Luvdgoof]

Sounds good to me, even though some of that went over my head.

Ray, I'll be e-mailing you for some more details.

Gordo, Thank you for your help and I'll let you know how it turns out.

 

[Luvdgoof]

Hello all, just wanted to give an update on the issue I was having. It seems the zoom was pretty far off. We don't know what caused it to shift so much since the last time we had maintenance on the machine, but the most recent scheduled maintenance fixed the banding issue. It was in fact not the Trillian plates that were causing the problem. Thank you for all your help.

 

[Derek@Kodak]

Luvdgoof,
Glad to hear that the issue was not with Kodak Trillian SP Plates and glad to see that the problem with the imager has been resolved.
Happy New Year and success in 2011.
- Derek@Kodak