Komori picture framing

[John Arneson]

George John, Alois Senen Felder,

Sirs;

Before you beat me up too bad, let me explain myself a little bit here. I have been at war with this picture framing problem for 18 months. I began to believe that this was a chemistry problem, in agreement with Kormori, Fuji, and Prisco. I did all that was asked of me to no avail.

At one time I was installing a new set of rollers, and decided to make damn sure that all the coppers were free of any contaminants. I hand washed all of the copper rollers beginning with:

Steel Roller De-oxidizer (Hydrochloric Acid)
Chrome Roller Cleaner ( Phosphoric Acid)
Followed up with lots of hot water.

I run a calcium rinse ( sulfamic acid) weekly if not more, and finish every wash up with a 50/50 vinegar and water rinse.

My rollers are clean and velvety. The press prints a clean sharp dot, it holds color, and I rarely have to adjust water even during the longest runs.

It is just picture frames.

ALOIS,
If this means anything to you,
I had a set of plates made from film to see what would happen. Unfortunately the same results.

When I finally gave up on the chemical war and started focusing on the mechanical aspect of the problem, things began to improve. Not cured, but improved significantly.

It is now my belief that there is something wrong with the dampening system. It could be either the gear ratios or the drive in the dampening motor.

I have improved things by changing the circumference of the water form and the nip pressures on all rollers.

Thank you for your time and input. Sirs.

John

 

[PriscoDigital]

Picture Framing

Picture Framing

John, Full disclosure - I work for Prisco (Printers Service). I respond as an ex-pressman and I understand your frustration. I recently had a customer in Maine that picture framed after 3000 sheets, fought this for months. Like you, they tried everything. When we got there the press was in great condition, clean, new rollers...........
Now I'll change hats - We were able to reduce the picture framing to approx 5% with Chemistry. We used a Fountain Solution and Wetting designed to fight PF on Komori presses. The pressmen said it's fun to run the press now. It's been several months since we installed the new chemistry, still running clean.
Let me know if I can be of help.

[email protected]

 

[neversatisfied]

George John, Alois Senen Felder,

I have improved things by changing the circumference of the water form and the nip pressures on all rollers.

Thank you for your time and input. Sirs.

John

John, what did you change the circumference on your water form to, thinking of doing the same thing, been having a different problem and i to feel it has something to do with the gear ratio, dampening fawl.

 

[John Arneson]

neversatisfied,

I was attempting to slow the roller down so I made the form smaller. My specs call for 80mm. (3.15 in.) I had one made to 79mm. and one at 78. Mechanically my mind tells me this has to make a difference, but in reality if you start monitoring your roller setting as often as I have to you will find the rollers change size a lot. I believe my most significant results have come from changing the nip pressures.

Are you running a Komori? If so what exactly is the problem?

John

 

[neversatisfied]

john, Yes i do run a komori its a 2003 528. The problem ive been fighting is chattering from the nylon gear on water form. I know its the gear because once i take it off and run without it the chattering goes away but other problems arise. Ive also had komori in to take a look at it and have tried numerous things. One of which was to try a bigger diameter water form, specs are 79mm and we tried 80mm. This did help but only for about a month. I measured the roller and it came down to 79. My manual says that if the roller goes down to 78mm to change it because the gears will not have enough backlash to drive the roller properly. I have also talked to my prisco rep about it and he said he's never seen this before. Anyway..... i also do fight picture framing but its gotten better since i started running 141-143 fountain solution with 3000 sub. So i'm beginning to wonder if it is a dampening design problem. Aside from this i really like how the press prints. Sorry for being long winded but i sure would like to get this figured out. Hope you fix yours as well.

 

[John Arneson]

Neversatified,
Firstly let me say that my first three Komories had this problem also. Just certain screens and certain colors. Komori always told me it was an ink problem (talk to the manufacturer) well about 4 years ago Komori had the roller company's change the covering on some of the ink rollers and that seemed to help quite a bit. I do not remember the specific ones off hand right now but can find out for you. Can you tell me your water system as in roller configuration, integrated capabilities etc.

John

 

[REYES1377]

The bottom line is it should not be this hard! Komori has issues. I have worked on 1986 speed masters that don't have the problems this 2009 LS has. I have a 2000 CD that is out performing this LS.

 

[neversatisfied]

john, dampening system consist of standard komorimatic with delta effect, no bridge roller so not able to run intergrated. And a big AMEN to reyes1377

 

[turbotom1052]

Not sure if it was mentioned or not but does the problem get any better or worse when you switch the delta oprtion on or off? I'd try altering the speed between plate and water form with the delta before I went and deviated from factory roller diameters.

 

[neversatisfied]

thanks for your input. Unlike heidelbergs vario system i am not able to disengage the delta drive at will on this komori model. The only way i know of and tried is to take the gear off the water form eliminating the delta effect, but other issues such as hickies, dampening banding arise. The chattering does go away thats how i know its gear related. I have posted a thread on this before but no answers, plus i find it interesting that no komori mech. or anyone related to komori has replied, i know there are plenty out there who read these threads. Oh well....

 

[John Arneson]

Reyes 1377

I hear you loud and clear. I admire your perseverance and determination to have put up with this problem so long. I only have half your problems being on a half size press.
The big problem with this blog is, and understandably is that people with komoris that work properly cannot help but think we are doing something wrong.

****
Never satisfied,

Can you tell me your exact system, as, in. Do you have VWYZ or XVWYZ or XUVWYZ oscillating X and or U?

***

Turbotom 1052,

There you go. I believe you hit the nail on the head. The only way to turn the Delta option of is what neversatisfied has stated by removing the gear.

The only real way to change the speed between the plate and the water form is to change the circumference of the water form itself. By changing the speed of the form at the counsel, we are changing the speed of the entire water system. There is only one motor and all rollers are gear driven by such.

We run our water systems just like all other pressmen. We want to star up clean, not washed out, not toned in. We want perfect ink and water balance. We run the entire job that way. That is why we are leaning toward a gear ratio problem on certain Komoris.

John

 

[Dan Roll]

I have always been suspicious of Komori's implementation of its gear driven water form. The KomoriMatic was no different than the old Harris DuoTrol dampener, and when properly set up was about as good a dampener as available on sheetfeds. When gear driven, the surface speed of the form roller is directly dependent on its diameter, and this diameter is likely to change as the roller is exposed to lots of friction against the plate. Weather the form roller shrinks or swells, the surface speed will change and this can not be a good thing.
I suspect that this press at the center of this thread may suffer from what I call 'bad book syndrome' where the manual that came with the press suggests some setting or packing scheme that leads to trouble, even though the owner and support staff are doing their best. In this scenario the manufacturer is often of little help as they will just come in and enforce whatever the bad advice might be.
I would investigate the packing of the plate and blanket. Too much friction between the plate and blanket can lead directly to background sensitivity, among other problems. Just like with the gear driven water form, the surface speed of the plate and the surface speed of the blanket are determined by the distance of the surface from the center of the shaft. The further from the center, the faster it is going and the closer to the center, the slower. I assume that the cylinder speeds on the press are the same (not always true) so investigate if there is much of a disparity in the overall diameter of the plate and blanket set-up. More than four or five thousanths of an inch of diameter difference may be worth changing to see if it helps. It does not take much of a speed difference between these two surfaces to grind ink into the grain of the plate or damage the anodic coating of the plate surface. The image is protected by a layer of ink, but the background of many modern plates is pretty soft and easily damaged.

 

[dwk]

PLease contact Don Newberry at Komori America, Inc. 847 545-4090

 

[Green Printer]

We have used Komori's since 1992. Ink form rollers no harder that 25 durometer anything over that will give the problems you are describing. Water form roller durometer of 21 to 23. You can turn the picture framing on and off like a switch. Fountain solutions and ink also play a very big part in picture framing. Contact your chemistry and ink supplier.

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Enlightenment !

Enlightenment !

Hello fellow Lithographers.

.............. is called for !

1) The Delta effect is not a feature of the Komorimatic or Alcolor dampening systems.

2) The Delta Drive is a patented design for a Dampening System from Epic Products (USA)

3) On the Komorimatic dampening system, the Metering Roller and Chrome pan roller are geared together, not the Dampening Forme Roller.

See the PDFs

Regards, Alois

 

[Green Printer]

The water forms on the Komori's I have owned all have been gear driven.

 

[Dan Roll]

Alois,
You are correct to point out that the pan and metering roller of the KomoriMatic dampener are geared together. You are less accurate to say "On the Komorimatic dampening system, the Metering Roller and Chrome pan roller are geared together, not the Dampening Forme Roller". At some point, for reasons that I could only express an opinion on, Komori decided to drive the form roller of their dampener with a gear. This introduced a situation where the dampening form roller was in contact with two surfaces traveling at different speeds, the chrome plated drive roller and the plate surface. Previous versions of this dampener allowed the form roller to be driven by contact with the chrome roller and have a small speed difference with the plate when set correctly.
Friction is the enemy of alcohol free printing and I do not believe that Komori did themselves any favors by moving in this direction. Despite advertising claims about the 'reverse slip nip' the KomoriMatic dampener is the Harris DuoTrol dampener traveling in one particular direction On web presses, the upper unit turned one way and the lower unit turned the other. I have never heard anyone say that dampening was more or less complicated on the upper or lower unit of an M1000, or for that matter on a G-14, as Baker Perkins used the same design on their webs.

While I do not believe that the design of the current KomoriMatic dampener is at the heart of this particular problem, I do not want readers of this forum to be misled by information that isn't up to date.

 

[neversatisfied]

John, My dampening system is, starting from top to bottom. X (oscillating copper rider gear driven), V (water form gear driven by oscillating chrome), Y (oscillating chrome), W (metering roller), Z ( water pan chrome).

dwk, is this a chicago area number, just wondering.

Dan Roll, what is your job if i may ask? You have good information. Thanks

Alois, thanks for the pdfs as usual.

 

[John Arneson]

Neversatisfied,
This may sound strange, but maybe you have done it yourself. I have had this same "chattering" problem on my former 6 color. I would adjust the water roller settings to very low on the set speed like 12 and the ratio speed to 175. Then adjust the press speed slow and fast and I could almost always find a point to where it stopped. I know that everyone will argue that by increasing the ratio is the same as turning up the set speed but it seemed to work for me. Many many times. I had the same roller configuration on the press as yours except my X roller could be engaged to the A form roller making it an integrated system, and that also helped sometimes on uncoated stocks.
John

 

[inkinveins]

We need to ask ourselves what is Picture framing ? It is the result ( for whatever reason ) of the dampener's inablity to completely clean the non-image area of the plate. Granted where the paper is the ink will actually be transferred to the substrate in virtually non-visible microscopic spots. wherever the paper is not ( outside the substrate area ) we will incur Picture framing, Ink build up from the plate to the blanket to the impression cylinder. Simply put this is a function of running dry ( Which is a good thing ). This is inherent to Offset, If this was not the case I guess we would never wash Impression cylinders. My question here is, what is the adverse affect of having ink on the impression / blanket cylinder outside the substrate. This is why God made automatic impression cylinder / blanket cylinder cleaners. Washing of these two cylinders in a timely fashion will alleviate any print associated anomalies. Just ask any U.V. printer why they cut blanket packing on any units that are lamped, because they do not want to cure the inherent transfer of ink to the impression cylinder.
BTW, neversatisfied, yes the 847 area code is a chicago number