Konica c6501 vs Xerox docucolor 260

[ginfay]

I'm considering upgrading my current km c500 to either a 6501 or a 260. I've been through most of the threads and have not seen this comparison -- although there's been a lot of mention of both machines. From speaking to other folks in the industry, I am leaning toward the 6501. Any thoughts?

 

[random]

the comparison machine for the c6501 is the xerox 700. If you have got along so far running a c500 kudos to you. The c6500 is twice the machine the c500 ever was.

 

[X33]

take a look at either the Xerox DocuColor 260 or 700 ... probably quality to the naked eye is going to be very comparable between the 3 units (of course, depending on what you are printing), so your decision might come out based on technology, uptime, realiability, service, maintenance and obviously cost.

I agree with random, "the c6500 is twice the machine the c500 ever was", in size ... but I think it still has the same old print engine technology (please correct me if I'm wrong)

 

[ginfay]

I never looked into the xerox 700. My guess is that it's out of my price range. The km c6501 was very reasonable. Although the cost I got for the xerox 260 was still about $200 less per month. I've been fairly happy with the c500 so I'm leaning toward the c6501.

The c6501 I priced out includes the embedded EFI fiery. Are there any "must have" options I should add to that fiery? like spectro photometer, color wise, ???

 

[Mark]

The Creo rip is supposedly "better" than the Firey, so the Firey must just explode when you use it because I can't imagine worse than the Creo.
Unless you're doing Kinkos kind of work, then I'm sure it rocks.

 

[lfelton]

260 is a brilliant piece of kit for the money, we put a million clicks on one in a year with minimal break downs. Disadvantages are front to back registration, it does not like duplexing coated stock and you get curly sheets (depending on stock, toner coverage).

6501 is really a product range, not a product and it sounds like you have spec'ed a fairly basic product so you probably won't get the air seperators, pre-heaters, decurler, RIP functionality etc. etc. of something like a 6501e system 7 (which is more expensive than a 700). If you post the model, someone might be able to comment in more detail, but I would guess that the sheets would be flatter and you would probably get better ftb registration. I can't comment on reliability as we only just finished the training late this afternoon and have only put a couple of thousand clicks on it since then. So far so good...

Fiery exploding?? I hope not as we specified the IC-305 with all the bells and whistles...

 

[random]

take a look at either the Xerox DocuColor 260 or 700 ... probably quality to the naked eye is going to be very comparable between the 3 units (of course, depending on what you are printing), so your decision might come out based on technology, uptime, realiability, service, maintenance and obviously cost.

I agree with random, "the c6500 is twice the machine the c500 ever was", in size ... but I think it still has the same old print engine technology (please correct me if I'm wrong)

Well your wrong, unless you think the 2060 and DC5000 is same old print engine i.e 4 drums, devs and transfer belt putting marks on paper. With this theory of being the same then you are basically saying in your comment that the 260 and 700 print very similar to a c500. C500 owners rejoice!

The creo and Fiery rips each have their strengths and weaknesses. Here are a couple….

Fiery –
Media guide lets you chose which pages are black and white or color.
If you have an ES-1000 custom spot colors are a piece of cake.
Superior color management.
Freeform
Expensive to match the creo spec.

Creo –
Possibly the best imposition available.
RGB and CMYK protection.
Comes with everything, spectro, screen etc.
REALLY easy gui

Both have virtual printers so really freeform is the only outstanding thing out of the box as a rip. The full spec Fiery in my mind is better than the creo as you can export impositions and a few other things the creo won’t do. But this comes at a cost so bang for you buck is the creo. They seem to add more and more features with upgrades so maybe things like freeform may become available. Imposition is done on the video board of the creo so the impo export probably won’t happen. But you will all have this ability anyway I would say.

You could run a business with the embedded Fiery but I wouldn’t. If at all possible try and stretch for the creo.

If you are going to run lots of heavy stocks then you must atleast have a large capacity tray. The bypass is like a appendix, it doesn’t do anything but evolution has left it there.

 

[Craig]

Well said Random!

 

[Mark]

If you are going to run lots of heavy stocks then you must atleast have a large capacity tray. The bypass is like a appendix, it doesn’t do anything but evolution has left it there.

I keep hearing that the bypass tray is the only way to reliably print envelopes on the KM6500.
But our appendix was taken out before the printer arrived, so I can't confirm that.

Be sure that your Konica repair guy is nice since you'll see him almost every week.

 

[random]

Mark,

I take it must have a c6500? Out of interest what is your monthly volumes?

 

[ginfay]

random,

What's the price difference between the Creo and the Fiery? The only reason I'm going with the Fiery instead of the Creo on the new c6501 is because I used the Fiery on the c500 and I'm familiar with the command workstation gui. I don't have any experience using the Creo so I am not familiar with it at all.

And why wouldn't you run a business using an embedded Fiery?

 

[Craig]

Ginfay,
Go with what you are comfortable with, Fiery is a fine product and produces color as good as or better than Creo. Creo used to be like Quark, the industry "standard" Fiery has come a long way in the last few years.

 

[Steve_S]

6500 vs. 260

6500 vs. 260

I have no experience with the 260 but almost 2 years on the Oce cs650, which is basically a km6500. As far as Creo vs Fiery, if you are print-for-pay and have clients who want the same color today as they will get on reorder in 2 months, you better get a Creo. We tried Fiery on our 650 (the Creo was not ready when we bought) and it was garbage, so we made them switch us to the Creo. Furthermore EFI's support is very lacking when you start to have your color problems. We also have a Xerox 6060 w/Creo that we've had for 5 years and I could run a color saturation that I ran 4 years ago and match it spot-on today. Good luck doing that on a Fiery. If all you need is the gadgets and tricks bag that comes with it, Fiery is OK but we are in business to sell quality color and would never have another Fiery.

The 6500 will do well for you as long as you have knowledgable tech support. We run duplex, heavy coverage, coated cover all the time and do well with it. We are looking to replace the 6060 with a DC 700 but the 35k (12x18 size) duty cycle is a little spooky. We average about 60 - 80k 12x18's on our machines per month.

Just my $ .02

 

[Craig]

I have no experience with the 260 but almost 2 years on the Oce cs650, which is basically a km6500. As far as Creo vs Fiery, if you are print-for-pay and have clients who want the same color today as they will get on reorder in 2 months, you better get a Creo.

Just wondering if that issue is related to the 6500/650? I have no issues whatsoever regarding color match on re-prints, maybe it has to do with the model of the Fiery.

 

[Steve_S]

RE: Creo

RE: Creo

Just wondering if that issue is related to the 6500/650? I have no issues whatsoever regarding color match on re-prints, maybe it has to do with the model of the Fiery.

We fought the 650 from day one - the day we swapped in the Creo, everything came around for us. Likewise, all of the tests we did before we bought the 6060 were the same - Fiery couldn't do the job. So one was a 5 yr old Fiery and one was from the beginning of last year (system 8 maybe?) Everyone we have talked to that has gone with Fiery for production color has been sorry, whether on an Xbox or a Konnie.

 

[Craig]

Ours is an EX8000 which is the system 8 with the full Graphic Arts Package. I must be one of the odd balls. Our color is almost a dead match to Pantone Bridge, and the most variation we had on a reprint was 3dE but that was after a PM with new developers. Go Figure?

 

[Steve_S]

Fiery

Fiery

That's good Craig - I don't have anything personal against Fiery, our experience has just been that we have not been able to do good color work with it. We are very meticulous about calibrating every morning also. Glad your 8000 is working well. Do you have any commercial accounts that you print for that complain about the sheen from the Xerox? That was the main reason we bought the 650 for our second color machine.

 

[rcreveli]

We have a 6500 with the large capacity trays, Fiery S450 and the basic staple finisher. We did not get the Graphic Arts package. We did however get the spectrophotometer about 90 days in. In my opinion it's essential. Regarding the controller I have been a bit disappointed with EFI lately. We have 2 xerox 4112's a Canon IR 9070 and the KM. I have noticed anomalies when printing to any of them (All Fiery controllers) from Indesign CS2&CS3.

For instance. When I send a file from indesign many of the controls don't work after the file has been ripped. For instance if I want to change a file from simplex to duplex it will register the change but when the file prints it will still be simplex. The same for things like image shift and stpling. This happens to about 80% of our indesign files.

Also about 1 time in 15 when we send a multi page document the first page will print correctly but the rest of the pages will be rotated 90 degrees. again only from indesign.

So I think EFI and or Adobe are slipping a bit.

 

[Steve_S]

When I send a file from indesign many of the controls don't work after the file has been ripped. For instance if I want to change a file from simplex to duplex it will register the change but when the file prints it will still be simplex.

Sounds like a printer driver issue and/or a RIP issue. I would not think this would pertain to In Design.

 

[Mark]

Mark,

I take it must have a c6500? Out of interest what is your monthly volumes?

Hard to say since we are so new. We got the KM6500 mid july and we are at 174000.
Of course we were not really doing much real work in july and early aug.

We are new to digital "printers", are there supposed to be so many tech visits? We've had eight so far this month.