Ricoh vs KM vs Xerox

[johntheventer]

Greetings

This is my first post here - although I've been reading the forum for advice for ages - really great platform this.

Ok, Im from South Africa, run a small copy shop that has been around for 40 years. Last five years we getting into light production.

Had a Xerox Docucolour 260 - great colour - but lots of issues with jams in finishing section. We looking at a new digital press, but are stumped on way forward.

First, I have some questions, I would greatly appreciate comments…

1) Im assuming that a straight path, larger fuser roller size and getting the machine without a finisher (Moving towards offline finishing) is the best. Am I correct?
2) Why such a big difference in Fiery controller prices between manufacturers - KM & Xerox quote $600 for embedded and Ricoh $8000 for embedded. We don't need hectic power here, but I do know I need a fiery.

Ok, so heres the machines; Ive read forums and Ricoh seems to be a favorite followed closely by KM…

1) Ricoh 5100 - $55 000
2) KM Pro 6000 - $33 000
3) Xerox Docucolour XC650 - $29 000

Ive tested the machines, the Ricoh seems by far the most robust, with lots of user maintenance available, but a very expensive stand alone or embedded Fiery option. A Fairly straight path even with a finisher.

The Xerox is basically what we have, Im assuming with small internal upgrades. Perfectly straight path without a finisher option.

The KM seems very capable but the paper path bothers me, the paper is already turning up 10 degrees as it enter the fuser unit, then another fairly sharpish bend, maybe 30 degrees as it exits… I'm very nervous about this.

Print quality on all three is fine by me - colour consistency is good - The Xerox seems to be the best as far as colour control goes - but I really don't get hung up about colour - I save each job with its colour profiles and print settings at time of print, a few quick tweaks and the next job runs fine.

Our average volume is about 30 000 / month, but Im looking at getting that unto 60 000.

I don't offer a large variety of substrates - uncoated 300gsm board and laser printer approved coated 300gsm - both in 150gsm also.

I would love to hear your comments.

 

[chrisg42]

I can only say what has been said many times before: that the main consideration with a machine like this is the availability and quality of service. In hardware terms, I'm sure each one is capable of doing the job, and I wouldn't get to hung up about paper paths, roller sizes, etc.

We get great service from KM in the UK; don't have any experience of Xerox service, but find the company generally difficult to deal with; we have vowed never to let Ricoh personnel or kit through our doors ever again. But the situation in SA might be totally different, so the only real answer is to talk to other users locally.

I have given up trying to follow vendors' pricing structures; the only thing that really matters is the cost of ownership over, say, 5 years. If you are going to increase volume, then you should be looking for a good click rate, and perhaps be less worried that the Fiery is priced differently. In any case all machine prices are negotiable and showing a vendor that you have a better deal on offer from elsewhere can have dramatic effects on pricing.

 

[johntheventer]

RE : Ricoh vs KM vs Xerox

RE : Ricoh vs KM vs Xerox

Thanks chrisg42..

What you say is pretty much my gut feel… service back-up here is great, no problems there - I might just take the machine that has been in the field for the longest… (well, not too long) which would be the KM 6000, almost two years.

And yes, Ive been thinking long and hard about how to stop selling prints (clicks) and start selling a product(s) - i.e.: like most of us already do - we don't sell 25 clicks… we sell 500 Business Cards… but I want to extend this to separate the click from the money 'till - in the perception of the customer anyway.

Ok thanks… almost home time here.

 

[msaeger]

Which Fiery on the Ricoh E22b or the E42b? The E22b is the "embedded type" on that runs Linux the E42b runs windows 7. Do you know if they have included any additional options on the Fiery like impose or something?

 

[speedracer]

Go with Xerox. I have both Xerox 770 & Ricoh Pro 651 ex. The Ricoh has what Ricoh calls a halo effect which is a white outline around the type when it sits on top of a screen. Ricoh does not have a fix for it and when I told them 2 weeks after it had to take it back they sent a specialist out and he said that it prints within specs. I printed the same file on the Xerox and it printed fine. The techs I talked to said it failed on other 651-751 printers they had. Other than that it prints fine. You can just take over my payments and have mine. Ricoh does not stand behind what they sell.

 

[johntheventer]

Hi @msaeger

The embedded Fiery is E22b and the stand-alone is E42b - Comes with Command Workstation, Impose and Compose - I told them to leave off the Fiery Basic Arts Package at $2000 and the Spectrometer Pack at $4200…. just too expensive and I don't need a graphic arts package - we design, pre-flight and pre-press in-house before ripping… I just can't seem to get my head around $8000 for an embedded fiery from Ricoh to the same thing from KM at $600 - unless they load their price on other components.

Since you are a Ricoh tech - would you mind talking me through the importance of a straight path and any importance behind fuser units - Ricoh's meet my perceived values, but Xerox falls hopelessly short - @chrisg42 said I shouldn't get too hung-up about it. And how does any of this affect back-to-front registration.

and does anybody know if the Xerox XC560 is really a entry level or light production machine - I have this gut feel that it's a high end office printer with a Fiery...

@speedracer

Ja - I have never had issues with Xerox print quality - by far the best - although I did get Ricoh to agree to sign a "Capability Agreement" with us stating that the machine will be able to do certain stuff critical to us within the three-year life-time of the machine (we rent over three years) with clauses of refund and or free early upgrades if it doesn't perform.

In South Africa the guys fall over themselves to get us a quote - they let us go to their showroom and print thousands of test prints even if we not that interested in buying.

Thanks guys - I really value your comments - has helped me greatly so far.

 

[msaeger]

Since you are a Ricoh tech - would you mind talking me through the importance of a straight path and any importance behind fuser units - Ricoh's meet my perceived values, but Xerox falls hopelessly short - @chrisg42 said I shouldn't get too hung-up about it. And how does any of this affect back-to-front registration.

A straight paper path is always going to be better especially for heavy paper you will get less jams with a simpler paper path. What do you mean by importance behind fuser units? The e22b is a linux based external fiery I have been hearing it called "embedded" but it is an external unit. Also at least in the USA impose and compose are options so maybe that is making the price higher. The e22b and e42b are running efi's system 10 (FS100) maybe the konica is a older version?

Some good features of the 5100 I have seen in use are

There is a abrasion roller in the fuser you can run so when you get lines in the fuser from running different paper widths you can run it and get rid of those.

Paper catalog that has parameters a bunch of parameters you can set so if you need to tweak something to get a special paper to run you can save it and not effect any other papers.

AC transfer which improves fill on rough paper.

The front and rear registration is really good because the machine does a paper shift in the duplex path so each sheet gets slid into the same position.

In South Africa the guys fall over themselves to get us a quote - they let us go to their showroom and print thousands of test prints even if we not that interested in buying.

They do that in the USA too