Konica Minolta 6500 - Thoughts

[Craig]

You actually need to have a service call to empty waste toner bottles, and change corotrons??? Gotta love that down time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[ALB]

PM

PM

I merely stated what a pm was and what was in the kits. The waste toner bottle is at the back side of the printer. Several components can be replaced by the user if a service tech allows them. The 100k kit is a 5 minute job. Most users will replace the waste toner bottle themselves. The 200k kit is a fairly big job. It doesn't surprise me it takes 3 hours to complete.

 

[printguy]

Does anyone own and consistently run one of these as a color production machine? We currently own a Xerox DocuColor 5000, but we are considering getting rid of it and purchase the KM 6500 - Mainly for price, but we dont look the shiny toner that the DocuColor Produces. Anyone have any really good things to say about this machine, or bad things for that matter??

We had one installed Sept 1, and we have printed 700,000 impressions. Aside from a national drum problem, that has now been resolved, this printer has been great for us. You need consider your workflow, volumes, and substrates you will be printing on. Registration can sometimes be tricky on heavier stock. We comparable Xerox and Canon models.....A2242, A252, etc.., and for the money you can't beat this machine.
The 6501 is the latest version of the machine. Take a look.

 

[ALB]

6501 Improvements over 6500

6501 Improvements over 6500

Have they done anything to improve registration?

Have they done anythine to improve color consistancy across the page?

I found that dev units/drums/pm kits need to be changed at about 60% of the published volumes.

 

[random]

Have they done anything to improve registration?

Yeah, it's called proper training.

Have they done anythine to improve color consistancy across the page?

Yes it is now spec'd to 5dE. In saying that a good tech should be able to fix this problem on a 65.

I found that dev units/drums/pm kits need to be changed at about 60% of the published volumes.

The PM cycle is based on 10% coverage or something ridiculous so if your pumping out constant 90% coverage then yes the consumables will wear out sooner rather than later.

If you have a good service agent in the current crop of engine around this speed you cannot go wrong with a 6500 even more so a 6501.

We are at a sweet spot with the c6500 right now we have worked out how the box ticks what it does and doesn't do.

The 700 appears to be a dismal failure already and I doubt this box will actually function reliably for some time and the fuser, my lord who would put a replaceable fuser that size in a 'production' machine.

The 5000AP is way too expensive and can't print the same color on either side of the paper without custom profiling each side. If you could get it to print on anything other plain paper of course.

Canon checked out years ago and will also happily charge you a fortune for a machine that will last for about 3 months.

I have worked on the c6500 since it came out and I can honestly say that I have blamed the stock on maybe 4-5 occasions. How many of you brand x owners get fed this line weekly? Ahhh the joys of oil free fusing.

Go and have a look at a c6500 and take a file that is full bleed red or blue or even black and run it till it drops density. You will get bored before it happens, if it happens. These machines are made to run all day and they will.

Others say it's an office machine for the simple fact it has a smaller footprint. The fact is KM were being innovative by stacking the drums vertical rather than horizontal thus reducing the foot print. The 5000 is twice the width but the drums are half the size! Go figure.

As with any machine you need a good service agent.

 

[PineyBob]

Well i called my sales guy 1st thing mon. i told him I wanted to get the color issues
figured out today. i also called the tech support and told them i wanted to fix the color
issues that day (mon) i put my staff full time on this project to figure it out, i am making a
real effort here. at 3:00 with no word from my dealer and no luck working out the color
issues on our own i e-mailed the sales manager and told him to pick up the machine.
no response so far.. today is weds, so i sent another e-mail and sent in 2 faxed letters.
Then today i also discovered they were charging me double clicks for 11x17 WTF we ran
a ton of copies this month at cheap entry rates now it looks like i will lose money on the clicks
as well. I don't know how this will end up but it will probably end up in court. Oh Crap!!
So don't use quality business systems in redmond wa.
Don
Bellevue wa

Sorry to say that most all of vendors not named Xerox charge 2 clicks for 11 x 17. I have in prior lives sold for Canon,

Minolta and Ricoh independent dealers as a Print for Pay specialist, so I know of what I speak. Sales people from Heidelberg operate at a different level of professionalism then the average copier rep.

If you're looking at a supplier one of the first things to ask ISN'T the price. Ask if the company has a dedicated Print for Pay Specialist. Without one you will be at the mercy of a 90 day wonder who can't tell a feeder from a sorter and thinks a RIP has to do with the party he was at last night or some old time "Copier Dog" who says anything to get a deal.

Either variety is bad for business especially yours. Next piece of advice is to actually READ what you sign before you sign it and NEVER NEVER NEVER take the Sales Reps word as by the time you have a problem they will have left or been promoted which means what was said is worthless.

It never ceases to amaze me that the average shop owner can tell you his EXACT lease cost, toner cost, click charge yet has no clue of the budgeted hourly rate for the device based on a projected level of business. We call this the Price of Everything, Value of Nothing Approach and it virtualy guarantees that your business is not a priority. Think about it. If I as your Sales Rep have to discount the deal to the point where I only make a few hudred dollars what incentive is there for me to drive 50 miles with supplies on a Saturday Morning so you can complete your rush job? Why give you my Cell phone number if there is no money in the deal?

Half the problems out there have nothing to do with the product. They have to do with the fact that neither industry understands the other and it creates an adversarial relationship that just doesn't need to be there. I always did well because I showed my customers how to make money. Most look at the cost side, I always looked at the revenue side. If you look at generating enough volume you can easily offset the cost differential that can occur when you deal with a customer focused dealer who likely has the staff to properly service the unique needs of the Printing Community. Which means they will likely not be the cheapest price. Think about it, do you print annual reports on job lot papers or do you break down and use a #1 sheet?

 

[ALB]

Sometimes blaming the tech and the paper sounds the same

Sometimes blaming the tech and the paper sounds the same

Yeah, it's called proper training.

If a manufacturer builds something it should work before a customer ever see's it. Your excuse of proper training I think is a little over used. What is your secret to good registration with 12pt c2s? I am talking front to back and side to side.

How does hi or low coverage have anything to do with a drum failing at 50k? If anything low coverage could make the blade run harder on the drum due to lack of lubrication by the toner.

I have watched 1.5 million clicks go through this thing and it has issues that are not related to the tech, paper, humidity etc.

Finally I am one of those techs that you keep referring to as "not properly trained".

 

[PineyBob]

Yeah, it's called proper training.

If a manufacturer builds something it should work before a customer ever see's it. Your excuse of proper training I think is a little over used. What is your secret to good registration with 12pt c2s? I am talking front to back and side to side.

How does hi or low coverage have anything to do with a drum failing at 50k? If anything low coverage could make the blade run harder on the drum due to lack of lubrication by the toner.

I have watched 1.5 million clicks go through this thing and it has issues that are not related to the tech, paper, humidity etc.

Finally I am one of those techs that you keep referring to as "not properly trained".

RE: Early Drum failure Caused by a number of factors, one being the use of out of spec papers. Now out of spec is usually thought of as to thick. But truth is it can be a variety of things such as how coated stock is coated. The highlly Calendared stocks like KromeKote use various clay based compounds all of which are highly abrasive. Acid content of the paper will raise heck too. Paper dust is also a menace to any internal part on a toner based device as it too is abrasive. All of this can mean excess wear and tear on things like Drums, Transfer belts, fuser rollers, cleaning blades and feed tires.

RE: Registration A product like the 6500 is NOT ever going to equal a printing press as there are no grippers as we know them. Registration is controled via the feed tires and transport syatem being used. CLC 5100's were notoriously bad in this regard.

It has been my experience both as a trainer working for Minolta and selling for a large Minolta dealer is that their products perform very well with good quality output as long as you stay well within specifications. Truth is and this is on ANY toner based device is that you can not run the majority of the monthly volume on non-digital papers. If 40 to 60 percent of your work is run on 12pt C2S then that machine will have problems guaranteed. You can Train a tech until he/she is walking, breathing technological wonder of the world but it won't matter if you run significant percentages of heavy stock. Heck on some Xerox products it tells you this right in the user guides.

 

[ALB]

Parts Failure

Parts Failure

The drum does not come into contact with the paper. Neither does the developer unit. Actually the image transfer belt does and it is probably the only component I haven't seen fail early. We have had a number of dev units fail early with banding. I know the dev unit was shot because I replaced the developer first with no change then replaced the unit and the developer. Image quality issue gone. I think Konica has come along way since the 8050 but they have along way to go still. I own a Heidelberg DI and am very familiar with the differences of a press and a copier. Konica states 1mm registration. I have yet to see that in my experience.

 

[PineyBob]

The drum does not come into contact with the paper. Neither does the developer unit. Actually the image transfer belt does and it is probably the only component I haven't seen fail early. We have had a number of dev units fail early with banding. I know the dev unit was shot because I replaced the developer first with no change then replaced the unit and the developer. Image quality issue gone. I think Konica has come along way since the 8050 but they have along way to go still. I own a Heidelberg DI and am very familiar with the differences of a press and a copier. Konica states 1mm registration. I have yet to see that in my experience.

1mm registration?? I think I hear "Look Boss de plane" in the background because someone was on Fantasy Island when they came up with that number.

I know that the paper doesn't come into direct contact. All the "stuff" from the paper will still work its way back into the system and can and will cause problems.

The banding or what I've heard referred to as "chatter Lines" have been around since the CF80 and while better it still is a lingering problem. I've been told that the developer failure is caused by LIMOS and the way it handles or builds a page. What version of LIMOS is being currently used? IIRC it's LIMOS III??

 

[Craig]

The 5000AP is way too expensive and can't print the same color on either side of the paper without custom profiling each side. If you could get it to print on anything other plain paper of course.

Where do you come up with this crap? It must be the KM propaganda newsletter you get.

 

[random]

Yeah, it's called proper training

If a manufacturer builds something it should work before a customer ever see's it. Your excuse of proper training I think is a little over used. What is your secret to good registration with 12pt c2s? I am talking front to back and side to side.

How does hi or low coverage have anything to do with a drum failing at 50k? If anything low coverage could make the blade run harder on the drum due to lack of lubrication by the toner.

I have watched 1.5 million clicks go through this thing and it has issues that are not related to the tech, paper, humidity etc.

Finally I am one of those techs that you keep referring to as "not properly trained".

Well that last line says it all really.

Where do you come up with this crap? It must be the KM propaganda newsletter you get.

You have stated yourself Craig that you have a 2dE drift on a duplex sheet. Owning the worlds best digital press like you and finding that acceptable shows you have a wide tolerance.

 

[ALB]

The Last Line

The Last Line

You know Random I was probably trained by a guy just like you. You have a real bent on Xerox. It wasn't even part of the conversation. From what I have read in the forum if anyone says anything negative about a C6500 than a Xerox 5000 (or any other number) is a piece crap. The thread was titled "Konica Minolta 6500 - Thoughts".

 

[random]

I doupt you would have been trained by somebody like me because if you had then you wouldn't be complaining about registration and think that more toner = less wear.

I do have a bent on Xerox. Just like Craig has a bent on Canon and KM and others have bent on anything they stand for. If you look thru the forums you will find on many occasions I have recommend machines other than the c6500 such as DC12 and 252 etc. Im not about to endorse a compeditors product that we are running head to head with am I?

The thread is called Konica Minolta 6500 - Thoughts, I have voiced an opinion why you would go with a 65 rather than a compeditors product. To me this seems consistant with the thread.

 

[ALB]

Registration

Registration

What would you say your 6500's do as far as registration.

Any skew?
What are you seeing front to back?
What are you seeing side to side?

What do you see on a brand new box and a box with 1,000,000 plus on it.

There is a big difference in the relationship when you get a check from Konica as opposed to sending a check. I am not a Konica employee nor have I ever been one.

I have never seen any documentation from Konica stating that more toner causes more wear on a C6500. The drums and dev are on distance travelled or number of sheets printed. That is on page 9 of the service manual.

 

[random]

You won't find any documentation with a graph comparing coverage vs volume. You learn from experience that if a customer is constantly running massive coverage the consumables aren't going to last. Does the toner cartridge last the same regardless of volume? No - why would the parts? Once again the parts life is based on around 10% coverage at best.

If I thrash the living daylights out of my car on the way to work then 1. I will go thru more fuel and 2. the engine, tyres and drive train will wear out faster. Same applies to anything.

The registration on this machine is pretty good. It may not line exactly the first sheet every time but you can tune it suite. Grab any old piece of paper and yes initially the machine probably wont back it up perfectly the first time. This is especially true for trays 1->3 as they have no centering sensor.

Skew is only as good as the guillotine you cut your paper down on. If you don’t cut it square the machine won’t print square.

If you have registrations issues don’t use tray 1-3 unless you understand the centering procedure.

If you find that one out of three crop marks line up when you duplex the paper is stretching and you need to use the chart adjustment to counter this and store it in the media catalogue.

 

[Craig]

You have stated yourself Craig that you have a 2dE drift on a duplex sheet. Owning the worlds best digital press like you and finding that acceptable shows you have a wide tolerance.

This just proves you are either an idiot or a Konica Minolta mouthpiece! 2dE is far better than the 6500 which is + or - 10dE. 2dE is almost not visible by the trained human eye. What a bafoon you are to think that the 6500 OR 6501 will be 0dE on color shift. You post that in writing from KM and THEN we will have a discussion on color shift.

I really like your reply about trays 1-3 to ALB. "If you have registrations issues don’t use tray 1-3 unless you understand the centering procedure." Why does KM even have these trays if you need to know the magical VooDoo in order to get them to correctly register the paper, such a basic need for production printing.

Get back into your Konica Minolta Pajamas, and have another drink of your Konica Minolta approved juice. Sounds a lot like communist China, I wonder if Konica Minolta is censoring your communications as well!

 

[ALB]

Will you answer my question?

Will you answer my question?

What are the actual numbers you see?
Are they 1mm or 3mm.
I am not referring to centering the image. I am talking about the lead edge registration moving 3mm forward and back " yes I have tested with Konica reccomended stock". It becomes impossible to back it up. I am using tray 5. As far as the cutter being out of square. Well I don't think you have ever worked in a print shop or operated a cutter.
Your analogy of the toner cartridge is pretty lame. I am not talking about toner consumption. I am talking about the drum itself and the dev unit etc. You also make reference to "thrashing the living daylights out of a car", are saying that Konica devices can not handle medium to high coverage printing or that it is consider abuse. If toner consumption is so critical in a 6500 why does Konica not use that data to shorten life on the drum and dev units?
The only issue I have seen from my 22 years in the print business is low toner consumption can cause spilling (dual component system) and the toner in the developer going "stale". I think you need to read your service manuals and not rely so heavily on your expertise. I have managed print centers producing 15 million pages per month. I have been on all sides of the business as an operator, tech, manager and owner.

I will post my toner coverage numbers on Monday and you can let me know if I am thrashing the daylights out of my C6500.

PS I was really hoping you would give me some magic paper loop adjustment to adjust the paper buckle not the centering adjustment. I have replaced the centering sensors 3 times and finally disabled the one in the ADU all together. I can get my side to side registration to about 1.5 mm instead of a 1/4 inch. Have you seen any board issues that could cause this issue.

 

[random]

What are the actual numbers you see?
Are they 1mm or 3mm.
I am not referring to centering the image. I am talking about the lead edge registration moving 3mm forward and back " yes I have tested with Konica reccomended stock". It becomes impossible to back it up. I am using tray 5. As far as the cutter being out of square. Well I don't think you have ever worked in a print shop or operated a cutter.

On the registration unit there are is one big rubber registration roller. It has two springs either side of it to put pressure on a stainless idle roller. The springs out of the factory are set to the lightest setting you need to set these to the tightest setting if you have any lead edge movement.

I have been to many printeries that either have extremely old or poorly serviced guillotines that are notoriously 1mm out of square. But seeing how yours is perfect then I guess everyone else’s is as well.

Your analogy of the toner cartridge is pretty lame. I am not talking about toner consumption. I am talking about the drum itself and the dev unit etc. You also make reference to "thrashing the living daylights out of a car", are saying that Konica devices can not handle medium to high coverage printing or that it is consider abuse. If toner consumption is so critical in a 6500 why does Konica not use that data to shorten life on the drum and dev units?

I am saying constant high coverage printing will wear out the components quicker than low coverage. Why is this so hard?

The only issue I have seen from my 22 years in the print business is low toner consumption can cause spilling (dual component system) and the toner in the developer going "stale". I think you need to read your service manuals and not rely so heavily on your expertise. I have managed print centers producing 15 million pages per month. I have been on all sides of the business as an operator, tech, manager and owner.

So let me get this right. Regardless what experience I have I should look at what the book tells me and make my judgements on that. If that were the case you wouldn’t be changing drums at 60k because the book says 200k. You would leave them in and find some other cause for your problem. But you don’t leave them in because your experience tells you it will fix your problem.

I will post my toner coverage numbers on Monday and you can let me know if I am thrashing the daylights out of my C6500.

PS I was really hoping you would give me some magic paper loop adjustment to adjust the paper buckle not the centering adjustment. I have replaced the centering sensors 3 times and finally disabled the one in the ADU all together. I can get my side to side registration to about 1.5 mm instead of a 1/4 inch. Have you seen any board issues that could cause this issue.

For what it is worth (and this is apparently nothing) in my experience the loop will do nothing. I have never had a problem with a centering sensor but I have heard of someone who has had problem with one so it is feasible. The chances of you having two let alone three be the problem is pretty remote. But I’m sure your experience has lead you to believe when you change It your problem goes away.

Main issues I have (down toexperience again I’m afraid so maybe take this with a grain of salt) with centering wandering is that the paper is cut 1mm to narrow (unlikely in your case as your guillotining is perfect) or the side guides are not even, they only need to be 1mm out for you to have a problem. It will move side to side at least 1/4inch if this is the case as an indicator for you. If your centering sensor is turned off then you have no chance what so ever of backing up correctly.

What are the numbers I see? I don’t have customers ringing up everyday with registration issues. Each customer has a different tolerance when it comes to duplexing anything greater than a 1.2mm usually gets noticed. If you get more than that then you have something wrong somewhere. The worst I have left a machine is about 1mm on trail edge crop marks but this was on 350gsm card so was well out of spec.

If you want to get to the bottom of your registration issues then you should post a question on copytecnet.com and we can work thru your problem. If you paper is in spec and is the right size and cut correctly (I am in no doubt it is) there should be no reason why you cannot get consistent and accurate registration.

 

[random]

This just proves you are either an idiot or a Konica Minolta mouthpiece! 2dE is far better than the 6500 which is + or - 10dE. 2dE is almost not visible by the trained human eye. What a bafoon you are to think that the 6500 OR 6501 will be 0dE on color shift. You post that in writing from KM and THEN we will have a discussion on color shift.

Dude you have 2dE change on the same sheet! We have 1.1 at worst on a machine 1/3 the price! Try a process grey Craig and then tell me 2dE is not visible to the human eye.