Looking for opinions on digital press purchase

[RAPFS]

Hello, new to this forum and looking for opinions. Looking to add a 70 ppm color digital press to our company within a month. We will be producing 100,000 clicks monthly to start and would like to have capacity to go over 300,000 monthly within the year. Budgeting 2000 - 2500 per month for equipment lease plus additional for service contract either as per click or other. Looking to get the most bang for the buck and perhaps take advantage of the many repo machines that seem to be in the market place. Any ideas? Gravitating toward a used Nexpress 2100 5 unit. But also comparing a new Canon 7000vp.

 

[Internal_R&D_Analyst]

Any specific reason you are targeting 70ppm? Does your work come in distributed evenly over the month or are there high peak points that you need a high output capability? For you starting out 100,000 a month if your jobs come in evenly you will only run the press 1-2 hours a day. That is pretty low utilization for a digital press. Even when you grow to 300,000 that's about 4 hours a day throughout the month.

For the 2100 be aware that the default configuration on the output is what I would call a copy machine drop tray and the max sheet size is 13.8x 18.5 if that works good, monthly duty cycle is 750K. If not look at the 2100 plus it has a high capacity finisher and proof try, and also has a max sheet size of 14x20.47 inches. The Canon 7000VP has a max sheet size of 13x19.2, and more finishing options. I can't find the exact duty cycle but assume it's close.

You may want to consider the Xerox 700 or DC5000 as well as the Konica C6501 or Oce CS665 for the anticipated volumes.

 

[RAPFS]

Thanks for your help. I've sold for a 100 ppm Igen 3 and 70 ppm Xerox 7000, but I haven't been impressed with Xerox' maintenance contract terms, although these were contracts written several years ago.

We would like to have a machine with a duty cycle of around 500,000, based on our projections for the next couple years. I think I'd rather have a little more machine than I need than a little less.

 

[Internal_R&D_Analyst]

We don't have any Canon color equipment, The NexPress would be a good platform with the ability to turn it into a 100 ppm machine in time if volumes grow.

We've favored the NexPress over the iGen3 quality especially when photo's are involved. The iGen4 appears to do a better job at competing here but we don't have any running for me to comment in a production setting.

Kodak will rebuild 2100's so you'd be getting an almost new machine if you went that way, a much better way I'd say then the M700 as some others and I discussed on here previously. And of course the M700 and Canon 7000 are built on the same platform with the Canon having more features.

 

[RAPFS]

I think I can justify either of these machine in my head. Assuming a used Nexpress 2100 plus could be had for what a new or nearly new 7000vp would cost, The Canon looks to have lower click costs, built in booklet making, an easier learning curve (?), and it's new. The Nexpress has the gloss unit, a more marketable name, more lineage, can be upgraded for speed, and twice the duty cycle. What else am I missing?

 

[Internal_R&D_Analyst]

I think I can justify either of these machine in my head. Assuming a used Nexpress 2100 plus could be had for what a new or nearly new 7000vp would cost, The Canon looks to have lower click costs, built in booklet making, an easier learning curve (?), and it's new. The Nexpress has the gloss unit, a more marketable name, more lineage, can be upgraded for speed, and twice the duty cycle. What else am I missing?

Printing your actual files on your actual paper, take them to any sales people and customer and let them decide what they like. If possible print some litho to put in the mix, don't tell anyone which is which and see what one they pick as the best quality, and see if they can tell which are digital and which are offset.

If possible in your area also visit customers that have the machines running in production and see what they have to say about it. Demo centers should be called sales centers, production is production.

Oh and most importantly don't allow the digital press companies access to the files prior to the printing. They say they want them to review to make sure they are ok, but really they are making sure they don't look like fools when the first sheet comes out.

 

[StrikTenn913]

Oh and most importantly don't allow the digital press companies access to the files prior to the printing. They say they want them to review to make sure they are ok, but really they are making sure they don't look like fools when the first sheet comes out.

I don't like this "it's us vs. them" mentality (suppliers vs. customers).

I have to side with the suppliers on this one. It's not realistic to expect outstanding output with no advance knowledge and time with the job prior to a demo. Would a commercial printer not run files through pre-press to assess the job prior to production to make sure files output correctly? The notion that there is zero makeready with digital printing is bull.

However, I do also think that the technical people and sales people need to be honest with customers regarding any issues with output during demos. If it sounds like an excuse, it probably is. BUT If it sounds like a logical explanation (ie. the spot color you want us to hit is outside of the machine+paper+rips gamut and is unproduceable, for example, it's probably true).

Also, if files are provided in advance - the customer has the right to be shown the steps that were taken to achieve the output they are shown. I would suggest suppliers print one copy without making any adjustments to color, gloss settings, paper and one copy with adjustments to improve output if necessary. Most of the these machines are not "click and print" machines.

Just my thoughts...

 

[Internal_R&D_Analyst]

I don't like this "it's us vs. them" mentality (suppliers vs. customers).

If I'm looking to buy a machine ($50,000-$600,000 and testing the same file with different manufacturers I would not want one changing the file or machine to adjust how the printed samples comes out. I'm not saying let one manufacture have access to the file prior to the demo and not let another one, it should be equal for all.

Many printers offer 24 hour turn or less so spending a lot of time changing a file or every component in the press is not possible.

Sales people are there for just that sales, I know we don't have sales people to tell our customers no, and how our competitors can do it for them. They want to be able to provide the solution and make the sale.

It's definitively not me versus you. It's you versus your competition, it's a print test which is one factor as to if the particular machine will meet the needs for that business. No favorites or special treatment, the results are the results.

 

[StrikTenn913]

R&D: I still do not think that's realistic. Commercial printers will add touch plates, adjust curves, keys, or anything else to produce acceptable output prior to delivery to the customer.

 

[Craig]

I agree with Internal here, what good is it if they have a color specialist come in and work some VooDoo on the front end to make that job perfect.

The best demo I had was not in a "demo" facility. It was an install at an in-plant, real jobs being run and real feed back from real operators. As a matter of fact I hosted a demo for Xerox with my 8000AP. same thing, they (Xerox) told me to tell it like it is. I didn't sugar coat, told them the bad and the good. They brought files on a USB drive, their paper and ran their jobs. No one from service came in before hand and gave my 8000AP a once over, I simply calibrated as I do normally.

That's how a demo should be, not in a sterile, controlled demo room environment.

 

[StrikTenn913]

I think we are disagreeing about different things.

If you want a real world production environment, you will NEVER achieve this in a demo room. Mostly these are for proof of concept/engine familiarization. I agree with you on this point completely. Go see a customer if you want to see the engine in a real environment... bottom line.

I don't agree in the timing aspect for job turnaround. The scenario that most printers turn around jobs in 24 hours or less is different than telling someone to turn around a job in front of you in 20 minutes. Time for pre-press is time for pre-press.

 

[Craig]

I don't agree in the timing aspect for job turnaround. The scenario that most printers turn around jobs in 24 hours or less is different than telling someone to turn around a job in front of you in 20 minutes. Time for pre-press is time for pre-press.

I agree with that!

 

[Sharp Dot]

I am a Xerox salesperson and I encourage my customers to bring the files in cold. It actual shows the customers realistically what will happen for them and how the tools will help them achieve sellable results. I have had no problems doing it this way, but I have had years of pre-press experience and I set the customers expectation correctly beforehand.

 

[StrikTenn913]

Thanks, Sharp. You illustrated my other point... your demo will only be as good as your demo-er. If your salesperson does not have the technical expertise in pre-press, they probably won't show off the engine capabilities to it's fullest. A customer might think that output issues are to blame on the engine, when they could have been caused by the non-technical operator.

I know, I know... the answer to this is that Manufacturers should hire technical people like Sharp. More and more are being forced to do this if they want to be credible in the production marketplace.

 

[Internal_R&D_Analyst]

I agree StrikTenn913, manufactures do need to have properly educated people. I once went to a dealer to do some testing on a digital press, and in conversation they didn't know what Drupa was, and had never heard of it. That kind of seams like someone saying they are a baseball fan and not knowing what the Wold Series is. If you are saying demo centers aren't capable of producing realistic results for what the printer will get if they place it in their site I don't see why vendors have them then.

RAPFS, back to you, have you done any testing, and made any decisions on which direction you are going to go?

 

[RAPFS]

Our business model and budget has narrowed our choices down to a couple. A used (4-5 years old) Nexpress 2100 or 2100 plus, versus a new (nearly) Canon 7000 vp or 6000 vp. Learning curve is a main criteria for us, Canon appears to be the simplest machine to run. Test files on the Canon looked great.

 

[ballykea]

Nex Press

Nex Press

Can offer Used with only 1.5 mm clicks for $65,000 LOT. Contact [email protected] for more details

Hello, new to this forum and looking for opinions. Looking to add a 70 ppm color digital press to our company within a month. We will be producing 100,000 clicks monthly to start and would like to have capacity to go over 300,000 monthly within the year. Budgeting 2000 - 2500 per month for equipment lease plus additional for service contract either as per click or other. Looking to get the most bang for the buck and perhaps take advantage of the many repo machines that seem to be in the market place. Any ideas? Gravitating toward a used Nexpress 2100 5 unit. But also comparing a new Canon 7000vp.