Magnus 800

[curiosity]

Brand new, yet after 8 months, still not signed off on. Problem is banding (2+mm in width vertically across width of plates...visible in certain screens when printed). Presumably this is the width of a laser swath. Now at point of purchasing a power conditioner or UPS device even though a power monitoring service showed that our power is "relatively" clean...has seen much worse.

Some specs: 800 manual specs machine at 208V and 12A. Tag on same machine reads 15A. Monitor survey showed MAX current at 37A and PEAK current at 85A. Many talks with Kodak, but they avoid including one their electrical engineers in the conference calls (per our request). Distributor of UPS/power conditioners that works with Kodak recommends a unit to handle the 37A. When asked why not the 85A, said vendor exclaimed..."that's a good question".

Regardless of all that, anyone experiencing the feeling that either Kodak hasn't a clue or they just don't want to say something they already know is true??? Either way is no good for us. Or are we just too picky.

Banding comes and goes. It causes a few reprints, but not a lot, which depends on our client or our in-house quality process. But we want it gone forever. Our customer base is 50% photographers and artists.

Anyone know if a UPS or power conditioner can indeed fix this?

And I've read up on Gordo's articles on the topic. Good details. We've experienced much the same and some differences. And now we're here ready to cough up several more thousands to possible fix the problem. Or not.

 

[PACH]

Brand new, yet after 8 months, still not signed off on. Problem is banding (2+mm in width vertically across width of plates...visible in certain screens when printed). Presumably this is the width of a laser swath. Now at point of purchasing a power conditioner or UPS device even though a power monitoring service showed that our power is "relatively" clean...has seen much worse.

Some specs: 800 manual specs machine at 208V and 12A. Tag on same machine reads 15A. Monitor survey showed MAX current at 37A and PEAK current at 85A. Many talks with Kodak, but they avoid including one their electrical engineers in the conference calls (per our request). Distributor of UPS/power conditioners that works with Kodak recommends a unit to handle the 37A. When asked why not the 85A, said vendor exclaimed..."that's a good question".

Regardless of all that, anyone experiencing the feeling that either Kodak hasn't a clue or they just don't want to say something they already know is true??? Either way is no good for us. Or are we just too picky.

Banding comes and goes. It causes a few reprints, but not a lot, which depends on our client or our in-house quality process. But we want it gone forever. Our customer base is 50% photographers and artists.

Anyone know if a UPS or power conditioner can indeed fix this?

And I've read up on Gordo's articles on the topic. Good details. We've experienced much the same and some differences. And now we're here ready to cough up several more thousands to possible fix the problem. Or not.

Somehow I do not think that your problem comes from the power supply. If you have a direct connection from your main power supply input board to your premises, this should be fine.( clean supply)
There are many factors that could cause your problem; plates;processor(if you have one) Thermal Head calibration; lead screw; THead carriage; carriage bearings, etc. You need a good technician to diagnose and solve your problem.

 

[rmac2125]

What type of plates are you using?
Very sensitive plates show more banding from the laser head.

Rob

 

[curiosity]

Thanks for the replies: (tried responding earlier , but it appears not to have worked)

Plates: Kodak Sword Xcel P45; as for sensitive....we output at 240 ls, which I believe is a factor. Main difference we observe with plates is related to lot numbers. From time to time, a different lot will yield slightly different measurements (when reading the control strip on each set output). Other than that, the plates are relatively consistent.

We are also skeptical of purchasing a conditioner or ups device. Confidence is not high that it will fix the problem. However, we know we will have to keep the device once purchased.

Kodak has replaced the laser twice. Each head was calibrated several times, and each head was little better than the previous one.

Kodak also pointed first to the processor. Lots of scrutiny, but not much changed, they now approve of our processor and have eliminated it from the usual list of suspects.

Lead screw, carriage, bearings...all have been strongly suggested by us, but so far have fallen on non-receptive ears. I'm guessing because to check or change out these mechanical pieces would be costly. May as well send an entirely new unit?

Might we have a lemon?!

 

[PACH]

Thanks for the replies: (tried responding earlier , but it appears not to have worked)

Plates: Kodak Sword Xcel P45; as for sensitive....we output at 240 ls, which I believe is a factor. Main difference we observe with plates is related to lot numbers. From time to time, a different lot will yield slightly different measurements (when reading the control strip on each set output). Other than that, the plates are relatively consistent.

We are also skeptical of purchasing a conditioner or ups device. Confidence is not high that it will fix the problem. However, we know we will have to keep the device once purchased.

Kodak has replaced the laser twice. Each head was calibrated several times, and each head was little better than the previous one.

Kodak also pointed first to the processor. Lots of scrutiny, but not much changed, they now approve of our processor and have eliminated it from the usual list of suspects.

Lead screw, carriage, bearings...all have been strongly suggested by us, but so far have fallen on non-receptive ears. I'm guessing because to check or change out these mechanical pieces would be costly. May as well send an entirely new unit?

Might we have a lemon?!

As it is still under warranty all the effort should be taken to solve your problems like the ones that I sugested earlier. They have to keep a customer happy and confident in the machine. They are very good Platesetters. Replacing parts should be easier than repalcing a whole unit. Could it be the SCSI connection?

 

[ansoft]

Why do you think of wrong power supply? Why do not you clean the optics? Kodak engineers must be so nice to come and investigate your problem. Especially, the machine is still in guarantee...

 

[PACH]

Why do you think of wrong power supply? Why do not you clean the optics? Kodak engineers must be so nice to come and investigate your problem. Especially, the machine is still in guarantee...

What optics are you on about? They alread had the head replaced twice? If it is a PSU problem the pattern (noise) would not be even. This is either data corruption or a mechanical problem.

 

[ansoft]

Sorry for the spam. I missed this fact for the head replacement.

 

[PACH]

Sorry for the spam. I missed this fact for the head replacement.

No worries! Be happy.

 

[curiosity]

Thanks again and thank you PACH for interjecting about the head.
Our relationship with Kodak is one of mutual support with a goal of resolving the issue. To that extent, all is good. The timeline, however, leaves much to be desired. Hadn't thought about the SCSI connection, but it "looks" okay. Connection to cpu was less than straight, however. Stress on internal board? Will mention to Kodak.
If anything is resolved I will repost.

 

[PACH]

Thanks again and thank you PACH for interjecting about the head.
Our relationship with Kodak is one of mutual support with a goal of resolving the issue. To that extent, all is good. The timeline, however, leaves much to be desired. Hadn't thought about the SCSI connection, but it "looks" okay. Connection to cpu was less than straight, however. Stress on internal board? Will mention to Kodak.
If anything is resolved I will repost.

RE. SCSI, have the SCSI board replaced in the RIP, or even maybe the cable.

 

[PACH]

Thanks again and thank you PACH for interjecting about the head.
Our relationship with Kodak is one of mutual support with a goal of resolving the issue. To that extent, all is good. The timeline, however, leaves much to be desired. Hadn't thought about the SCSI connection, but it "looks" okay. Connection to cpu was less than straight, however. Stress on internal board? Will mention to Kodak.
If anything is resolved I will repost.

I forgot to say the similar problems surfaced sometimes on Lotem800Quantums.

 

[Joe Duffy]

Try putting together a written document that outlines that you will purchase the conditioner, but if it fails solve the problem that Kodak will reimburse you for the product and void the contract.
After all of the cost you have had because of the issue and the cost they have had trying to fix it, seems as if it is in both parties interest to find a ending point.

I had a 400 series and the conditioner was required at install... never had any of the problems with banding but several issues with plate quality and sizes.

 

[curiosity]

thank you Joe.
we're working on a swap of sorts....plates for cost of conditioner.
Just got a report comprised of input from Kodak to conditioner company as to what we will need. All of it is based on the machine and reading between the lines indicates that Kodak should have known the nature of their sensitive equipment. Hmmmm.
Is everyone aware that before a few years ago, it was a required Kodak practice to monitor power prior to installation AND purchase a power conditioner or UPS device (at recipient's cost, of course)?
And that it appears their equipment used to be built on a 3 phase platform, while now it is on a single phase? Hmmm.

 

[PACH]

thank you Joe.
we're working on a swap of sorts....plates for cost of conditioner.
Just got a report comprised of input from Kodak to conditioner company as to what we will need. All of it is based on the machine and reading between the lines indicates that Kodak should have known the nature of their sensitive equipment. Hmmmm.
Is everyone aware that before a few years ago, it was a required Kodak practice to monitor power prior to installation AND purchase a power conditioner or UPS device (at recipient's cost, of course)?
And that it appears their equipment used to be built on a 3 phase platform, while now it is on a single phase? Hmmm.

I am afraid that this was not a requirement ,so I am not sure who told you this "Is everyone aware that before a few years ago, it was a required Kodak practice to monitor power prior to installation AND purchase a power conditioner or UPS device (at recipient's cost, of course)?"The Lotem was a 3 Phase machine and your problem surfaced on some machines.
In the 80s during the large systems from Scitex the customer was obliged to install an isolation transformer to overcome any outside electrical interferences; i.e from presses; air con units; etc.

 

[curiosity]

My bad and my apologies for sounding... conspiratorial??
I'm basing my statement on operator manuals, which still read: "Before installing the device, a power monitor should be placed at the site..." 3 presite inspections, attention to this every time, and consensus was not to bother. But eventually we did this based on Kodak recommendations some 6 months after install, and results didn't necessarily indicate any problems.
I'll reiterate that we run at 240 ls. I'll also mention that are standards for acceptable quality may be excessive, and therefore what we are experiencing may not be of concern for other printers.

 

[Stephen Marsh]

Just curious, if your am screen lpi is 240, what resolution are you ripping to?

Stephen Marsh

 

[PACH]

Thanks for the replies: (tried responding earlier , but it appears not to have worked)

Plates: Kodak Sword Xcel P45; as for sensitive....we output at 240 ls, which I believe is a factor. Main difference we observe with plates is related to lot numbers. From time to time, a different lot will yield slightly different measurements (when reading the control strip on each set output). Other than that, the plates are relatively consistent.

We are also skeptical of purchasing a conditioner or ups device. Confidence is not high that it will fix the problem. However, we know we will have to keep the device once purchased.

Kodak has replaced the laser twice. Each head was calibrated several times, and each head was little better than the previous one.

Kodak also pointed first to the processor. Lots of scrutiny, but not much changed, they now approve of our processor and have eliminated it from the usual list of suspects.

Lead screw, carriage, bearings...all have been strongly suggested by us, but so far have fallen on non-receptive ears. I'm guessing because to check or change out these mechanical pieces would be costly. May as well send an entirely new unit?

Might we have a lemon?!

Going back to plates, have you tried different plates? You are using very high screen rulling so maybe the Sword is not up to it.

 

[curiosity]

Stephen, we rip to 2400.
PACH, no we have not tried other plates. We have, however, tracked lots and such. The banding is intermittent and independent of lots.

 

[Joe Duffy]

You may want to try ripping at 3000 dpi, not sure if the spot size limitation of the Magnus could handle that but it may solve your banding issue.

I would agreee that you should contact Agfa nad Fuji and have them come in and test plates also, just to be sure you have another plan in place should the power conditioner not resolve your issues.